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Thread: Atemi-Waza, Wado and Shinto Yoshin

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    Default Atemi-Waza, Wado and Shinto Yoshin

    Greetings all.

    I was wondering if any one had any further info that might verify the following:

    Atemi-Waza - Vital Point Striking
    A vital point is that part of a body which, when struck with sufficient force, angle and accuracy, can
    render the opponent incapacitated, unconscious or even dead. The important point however, is the
    scientific and drastic effect they have on the nervous system. If improperly practised vital point
    manipulation can lead to headaches, nausea, unconsciousness, paralysis or death.
    Atemi-waza has a long history in Wado Kai. Sensei Otsuka presented Funakoshi a chart of vital points in
    the early 1930’s as a gift to commemorate the publication of Funakoshi’s 1935 “Karatedo Kyohan” book.
    Apparently Sensei Otsuka received the chart as part of his training in Shindo Yoshinryu jujutsu.
    36 Atemi-waza
    Jodan
    1. Tendo (coronal suture)
    2. Tento (just above the forehead and
    hairline)
    3. Komekami (temples)
    4. Gansei (eyes)
    5. Mimi (ears)
    6. Dokko (behind the ears)
    7. Jinchu (region below the nose)
    8. Gekon (below lower lip)
    9. Shofu (side of neck)
    10. Hichu (adam's apple)
    11. Sonu (base of throat)
    12. Clavicle fossa
    13. Keichu (nape of neck)
    Chudan
    14. Soda (between shoulder blades)
    15. Danchu (sternum)
    16. Suigetsu (solar-plexus)
    17. Kyoei (armpits)
    18. 4th thoracic vertebra
    19. Kodenko (1st lumbar vertebra)
    20. Bitei (coccyx, tail bone)
    21. Myojo (below navel)
    22. Kinteki (testicles and prostrate nerve)
    23. Denko (between 7th and 8th ribs)
    24. Inazuma (side, tip of 11th rib)
    25. Yako (inside upper thigh)
    26. Outside bicep
    27. Outside forearm
    28. Sotojakuzawa (wrist edge above pulse)
    29. Kote (inside wrist crease)
    30. Shuko (back of the hand between thumb
    and forefinger)
    31. Web between the baby and ring finger
    Gedan
    32. Fukuto (outside lower thigh)
    33. Hizakansetsu (knee joint)
    34. Uchikurobushi (inside ankle joint)
    35. Outside ankle joint
    36. Kori (instep of big toe and 2nd toe)
    from:http://www.edsonkarate.ca/training/atemiwaza.pdf
    -James Smith
    Shintoyoshinkai Jujutsu (Gendai)
    Shuri Ryu Karate

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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by WillowPineBudo View Post
    Greetings all.

    I was wondering if any one had any further info that might verify the following:



    from:http://www.edsonkarate.ca/training/atemiwaza.pdf
    James,

    I have a few issues with your definition of a vital point
    1. You can incapacitate most people if you hit any part of their body with enough force.
    2. Anyone can faint from pain, if it is intense enough. it does not have to be a vital point.
    3. Hitting most vital points cannot cause death and conversely, people can die by being hit by points other than vital points.
    4. The word 'scientific' in the definition is non-sensical, probably added to give legitimacy to the definition.
    5. If you are hit with a baseball bat, 1/2 way between tento and komekami, you can suffer ' headaches, nausea, unconsciousness, paralysis or death'. So these effects are not exclusive to manipulation of Vital points. Conversely, you can have 'kote' manipulated improperly and it is unlikely to cause any of these effects.

    In summary you will have to find a better definition for 'vital point'. The current definition does not differentiate a 'vital point' from any other point on the body.

    Cheers,
    Robert Gassin
    Melbourne ShorinjiKempo Branch
    Australia

    "Never fight an idiot. He'll bring you down to his level and then beat you with experience"

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    Rob,

    This is not my definition. It was quoted from the website linked under the quote.

    Though I would love to get into a discussion about vital points and how to define them, I was just asking if anyone had more information on this gift presented to Funakoshi from Otsuka, especially with concern to its relation to SYR.
    -James Smith
    Shintoyoshinkai Jujutsu (Gendai)
    Shuri Ryu Karate

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    from: http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=40

    Even Funakoshi's chart in his 1935 publication Karatedo Kyohan, does not seem to be Okinawan in origin. The same article in Gekkan Karatedo (1999) clearly states that this chart, along with the explanation of the effects, came to Funakoshi by way of his student Otsuka Hironori, 4th generation Shindo Yoshinryu Jujutsu and founder of Wadoryu Karatedo. This chart seems to be the same chart utilized in the Shindo Yoshinryu jujutsu tradition, and was a gift to Funakoshi in commemoration of the publication of this landmark book.
    -James Smith
    Shintoyoshinkai Jujutsu (Gendai)
    Shuri Ryu Karate

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    What is on Otsuka's teaching license is one of two things. "Kyusho" points (I believe) can be used to hurt (by striking or grabbing) or heal (by means of acupressure). There are another set of points that are called "akusho" points which are just to injure, and that is another possibility.

    As for the use of vital points, there isn't a whole lot of, "killing with one strike", but that is something that can be used to get a desired reaction that opens up your opponent for somthing else. Fortunately, contrary to popular belief, most of the time you actually are not aiming for some perfectly precise area. Some of those places are pretty easy to damage. Point and case; the mastoid nerve is something that boxers hit on accident all of the time
    Last edited by epramberg; 22nd October 2009 at 19:19.
    Eric Peter ("Pete") Ramberg

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    Default Take a look at the Bubishi

    I recognize that the original discussion started with vital points in Wado-ryu and the relationship with Shindo Yoshinryu jujutsu.

    I agree that in traditional jujutsu (I am a member of Hontai Yoshin Ryu but this should not be confused with Shindo Yoshinryu or other traditions that incorporated “Yoshin into their name) more and more emphasis was made on strikes at vital points, exposed due to the lack of armor.

    However, when the discussion gets broader and starts to look at Okinawa and the use of vital points in Tode (or later Karate) it might be worth looking into the Chinese origin of the concept of "vital points". A good resource to do so seems to me "The Bible of Karate, Bubishi" translated and commented by Patrick McCarthy.

    At least from my background in Shito-ryu karate, I have always been pointed in that direction, mainly because of the effort made by Mabuni to make parts of the Bubishi public.

    A significant portion of Karatedo Kyohan by Funakoshi is said to be taken from the Bubishi.

    Guy Buyens
    Hontai Yoshin Ryu

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    Dear James

    The founder of Shindo Yoshin Ryu (the name escapes me at the moment) learnt Tenjin Shinyo Ryu from Iso Masatomo (third generation) and if you can look at the Shindo Yoshin Ryu's Keiraku no Maki it has a similar layout as a densho in Tenjin Shinyo Ryu,although I do also agree with guy that seeing copies of the Bubishi (in my Goju Ryu days) that this very important karate densho would have had alot of influence.
    Kind Regards
    Lee Masters
    Tenjin Shinyo Ryu
    Tenyokai International

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