Likes Likes:  25
Page 6 of 7 FirstFirst ... 2 3 4 5 6 7 LastLast
Results 76 to 90 of 95

Thread: Denying Shorinji Kempo's Chinese heritage...

  1. #76
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Berlin, Germany
    Posts
    1,248
    Likes (received)
    20

    Default

    Gassho!

    Quote Originally Posted by ryama23 View Post
    hmmm.... I thought the picture was in the all Japanese two book set, is that the Kyohan?
    Yep, that's the Kyohan. And I'd be interested in that picture.
    I read something about the backstory in this old Gassho article. It also has some pictures.

    Kesshu,
    ______ Jan.
    Jan Lipsius
    少林寺拳法
    Shorinjikempo
    Humboldt University Berlin Branch

    "An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind." Gandhi

  2. #77
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Oz
    Posts
    33
    Likes (received)
    18

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Baiyuantongbei View Post
    The statement was actually objective. There really aren't any _known_ great masters who went to Taiwan. There is actually only a single verifiable lineage from Yang Luchan. His sons Yang Banhou was actually the most talented. His other sons Shao Hou was less so with no challenges made with him apparently choosing to stay home and teach the form. Banhou was famous for being rather mean. Yang Cheng Fu - while _very_ famous, actually only started learning (and not from his father) when he was 23. He had no interest prior. The many weighed about 300 pounds and went to southern China where virtually all the people were small. He cannot be said to be a "great master" when compared with his father although his student religionists will forever say otherwise.

    Meanwhile Taiwan - "highly regarded" or not, no known "great master" ever went there. As I said, it is _possible_ that someone could be a pretty good practitioner, and especially in the ignorant eyes of the BBC might be elevated to greatness due to the mystical fantasy thinking of those who don't know much... but it doesn't change the fact. Those "great masters" acquired their reputations by direct challenges and fighting - not puffery and made up histories - sorry if this is disappointing to you.
    Sorry Peter - but that just tells me you don't actually know what the word 'objective' means. Your assessment is in fact the opposite of objective.

    There is only one 'verifiable' lineage? Like I said.. hilarious. There is virtually nothing in CMA 'history' that is verifiable. And of course conveniently your 'one' lineage extends from Yang Luchan through his sons.. and ends.. where I suppose Wu 'took over'?

    Like I said, I'll never understand the need to denigrate and belittle others - certainly not exclusive to Wu stylists, or Taiji or CMA - but it seems to be a real characteristic of Wu Taiji people.. and speaks to a real insecurity.

    Oh and where did this 'one' verifiable lineage originate? Where did YLC magically acquire this 'pure' Taiji? Oh that's right.. Chenjiagou.. which you say never had any Taiji. While I'm aware of the disputes between Chen and Zhaobao, the murkiness of this history demonstrates exactly my point - there's nothing verifiable in CMA history, it's virtually all partisan oral tradition. But I hope it makes you feel better to claim exclusivity.

    Re Taiwan - again, 'objective'? Hardly. Just because you may have never heard of Wang Shujin, Chen Panling.. many others, even *gasp* Zheng Manqing, doesn't mean others don't regard them as 'known great masters'. Like I said - perhaps qualify your statements that you are speaking specifically to *your* branch of Wu Taiji.

    Hung Yixiang was a leading student of Zhang Junfeng. Like you were complaining about re Wang Peisheng - perhaps you might feel bold enough to dismiss Zhang or Hung as something other than 'great masters' who didn't gain his reputation through 'direct challenges and fighting', but I'm afraid you're only demonstrating your own ignorance. As I mentioned - Hung produced some VERY well regarded students (though mainly known for XYQ and BGZ) - Luo De Xiu and Su Dong Chen competed in SEA full contact tournaments.. and won.

    And while you're looking into Dan Harden, Sam Chin, I Liq Chuan.. check out Liu He Ba Fa, Ziranmen, Liangyiquan, Wenshengquan... and all the other 'internal' arts out there.. before putting yourself forward as some sort of arbiter.

  3. Likes ryama23, JL. liked this post
  4. #78
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Oz
    Posts
    33
    Likes (received)
    18

    Default

    And FWIW, I have never studied Taijiquan, or with any Taiwanese teachers - I have done JMA only for some years now, and could not care less about your assessment of any CMA/teacher (or JMA for that matter)

    But I would point out to any laypeople reading this thread that your opinions are your own, and should be viewed as such.

  5. #79
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    3,539
    Likes (received)
    131

    Default

    Ryan wrote: "No one 'attacks' with a wrist grab..."
    They do, if you're a woman. Wrist, forearm, upper arm, and shoulder grabs are very common ways that women are attacked, particularly by male assailants. Just sayin'.
    Last edited by Cady Goldfield; 7th February 2015 at 01:25. Reason: fixin' typos
    Cady Goldfield

  6. Likes JL., mkrueger liked this post
  7. #80
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    67
    Likes (received)
    11

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cady Goldfield View Post
    Ryan wrote: "No one 'attacks' with a wrist grab..."
    They do, if you're a woman. Wrist, forearm, upper arm, and shoulder grabs are very common ways that women are attacked, particularly my male assailants. Just sayin'.
    touche! I'm just over 200 lbs so I should say no one tries to grab my wrist!

  8. #81
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    3,539
    Likes (received)
    131

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ryama23 View Post
    touche! I'm just over 200 lbs so I should say no one tries to grab my wrist!
    I am pretty sure that no one his his right mind would try to attack you by grabbing your wrist! ;D
    Cady Goldfield

  9. #82
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Pittsburgh
    Posts
    16
    Likes (received)
    3

    Default

    I see. You have obviously studied Taijiquan's history for years

    Actually, no, you're quite wrong. There is actually only one _verfiable_ lineage in Taijiquan - verifiable as in trace-able through the ~165 years of its existence from Yang Luchan. The trace-ability for Taijiquan is actually _better_ than any other Chinese martial art because of the existence of its literature. No other CMA has as clear and as well-known artifacts that can actually be tested for age and traced than Taijiquan. And you're correct on one point - that's not saying a lot. But it is something. In any case, that literature gets you nowhere _before_ Yang Luchan. His master was old and dying when Wu Yuxiang went back to Chen Village to attempt to retrace. In Chen Village, the practice of Taijiquan was _not_ common. They had their family styles and not Taijiquan. Further, none of the _deep_ Taijiquan Classics comes from Chen Village, whereas the Zhaobao lineage is well documented and quite clear. Most likely the path is through Zhaobao through Chen Village. If we lived by scholarly and documentable rules, that would certainly be the consensus. The terrible "research" of a certain Tang Hao contributed to the confusion by virtue of his simply asserting his hypotheses and supporting only his view which later became politically correct. His history is clearly wrong and recognized by virtually all traditional groups as such.

    As to masters - there have been only a tiny few with a reputation such as Yang Luchan. There is a difference between a recognized "great master" and those of lesser status that has to do with their achievements across a range of other systems. Yang Luchan has managed to stay in the books to this day as "Yang Wudi" because he beat virtually every great master in Beijing in the 1850s. This is not a small feat and he "blamed" the internal martial arts for his success. The only individual in question is Dong Haichuan, with whom he ended up friends and possibly even adding to the body of knowledge associated with the (then) new name of "Taijiquan" (a moniker which did not exist prior to his time having previously been called - shisanshi among other names previously). And I stand by what I said, there are no known masters of Yang Luchan's stature ever to emerge from this lineage and _especially_ not with respect to Taiwan - not a one. And, if you know anything about Chen Manqing and anything about Taijiquan - despite his American (and other western) students creating a god out of him, in fact he has no known real fights or other credibility to augment his achievements except for the dogmatic views of his students. Typically someone who is a great master has a proven track record of very public and very visible combats. Find me one and I'll find you a liar (by and large). Further, "good fighting" is no indication of Taijiquan skill. A great western boxer is likely to beat nearly any of said, "great masters of Taijiquan" - and if this isn't true, it is a point that needs to be proven. At least in our group, the point is a proven one.

  10. #83
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    96
    Likes (received)
    19

    Default

    Hello Peter,
    First please let us know when the Tai Chi Classics book comes out and how to order it. I think there are a number of us here who would be very interested in ordering it. I am not trying to argue with you simply understand what you are saying.
    First, no great masters in Taiwan (or from Taiwan). Seems to me if taking challenges is a large part of being great Wang Su Jin surely must qualify. What am I missing?
    Also, although I have heard other people say Cheng Man Ching wasn't so great (I don't have anyway to judge one way or the other, but I do find it interesting that like Mas Oyama people started saying this after he passed away) wasn't he the primary teacher of William C. C. Chen who by all accounts fought very public and very visible?
    No internal arts in Japan- Why are you excluding Tai Ki Ken which to my understanding is a synthesis of Yi Quan and Japanese Martial Arts?
    OK the place I am really not following you: where are we going with good fighting not being a good indication of ones Tai Chi - seems to run opposite of Wang Peisheng could beat everyone, so his Tai Chi was on the highest level. Or are you saying your school has sound fighting ability and others don't? Or maybe good fighting ability only matter if developed within the context of sound Tai Chi principles? Does "proven point in your group" mean you guys could take Paul Spadafora if he challenged you or are you saying your group couldn't and it doesn't matter? Sorry maybe I am just slow but I really don't understand what you mean here.
    Respectfully,
    Len McCoy

  11. #84
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Oz
    Posts
    33
    Likes (received)
    18

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Baiyuantongbei View Post
    I see. You have obviously studied Taijiquan's history for years

    Actually, no, you're quite wrong.

    As to masters - there have been only a tiny few with a reputation such as Yang Luchan. There is a difference between a recognized "great master" and those of lesser status that has to do with their achievements across a range of other systems. Yang Luchan has managed to stay in the books to this day as "Yang Wudi" because he beat virtually every great master in Beijing in the 1850s. This is not a small feat and he "blamed" the internal martial arts for his success. The only individual in question is Dong Haichuan, with whom he ended up friends and possibly even adding to the body of knowledge associated with the (then) new name of "Taijiquan" (a moniker which did not exist prior to his time having previously been called - shisanshi among other names previously). And I stand by what I said, there are no known masters of Yang Luchan's stature ever to emerge from this lineage and _especially_ not with respect to Taiwan - not a one. And, if you know anything about Chen Manqing and anything about Taijiquan - despite his American (and other western) students creating a god out of him, in fact he has no known real fights or other credibility to augment his achievements except for the dogmatic views of his students. Typically someone who is a great master has a proven track record of very public and very visible combats. Find me one and I'll find you a liar (by and large). Further, "good fighting" is no indication of Taijiquan skill. A great western boxer is likely to beat nearly any of said, "great masters of Taijiquan" - and if this isn't true, it is a point that needs to be proven. At least in our group, the point is a proven one.
    What a surprise. You're welcome to your views Peter - if your version of 'scholarly and documentable' (sic) includes referencing a collaboration between Yang Luchan and Dong Haichuan, well.. all I can do is encourage other interested readers to do their own research and form their own conclusions.. The fabled meeting between DHC and Guo Yun Shen has also done the rounds for years.. and is equally 'scholarly and documentable'.

    I'm guessing that the last line of your post is meant to imply that people 'in your group' have beaten 'great' western boxers? Care to name any names? Any footage to share? The last footage I saw of a 'challenge' fought by someone in the Wu branch of Taiji was.. infamously unimpressive.

    As I said, I don't study Taijiquan, I don't really care about your assessment of any Taijiquan 'masters'. I specifically mentioned Zheng Manqing because he is an exemplar of someone who has produced numerous highly regarded students (William CC Chen mentioned by Len above, Ben Lo etc) but who by all accounts didn't really participate in any genuine fights - but has many people that do still regard him as a 'great' Taiji master. The insular and partisan nature of CMA training inevitably results in these type of petty back-and-forths. All I wanted to say was that your notion that there is only 'one' lineage of Taijiquan is your opinion only. If that's the case though.. why do people mention 'Chen' 'Zhaobao' 'Yang' 'Tung' 'Wu' 'Sun' 'Wu(Hao)' 'lines' of Taiji?

  12. #85
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Oz
    Posts
    33
    Likes (received)
    18

    Default

    And if there's only ONE verifiable lineage of Taiji - through YLC.. how is the Zhaobao lineage 'well documented and quite clear'?

  13. #86
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Berlin, Germany
    Posts
    1,248
    Likes (received)
    20

    Default

    @Moderators: Can we please, please move this out of the SK forum now? Please!

    JL
    Jan Lipsius
    少林寺拳法
    Shorinjikempo
    Humboldt University Berlin Branch

    "An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind." Gandhi

  14. #87
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    3,539
    Likes (received)
    131

    Default

    If this thread is to be left open, it must get back on topic. Please corral it and bring it back to Shorinji Kempo relevance if you wish to continue a discussion here.
    Cady Goldfield

  15. Likes JL. liked this post
  16. #88
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Yiewsley, U.K.
    Posts
    2,449
    Likes (received)
    5

    Default

    Ok, I've been a little quiet on here of late. Sometimes real life and not virtual life is more important

    Anyway, as Cady just said, this is a forum for the discussion of Shorinji Kempo (the style created by Doshin So), so please get it back on topic or this thread will be closed or moved.
    Steve Williams

    Harrow Branch.
    Shorinji Kempo UK.
    www.ukskf.org




  17. #89
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Oz
    Posts
    33
    Likes (received)
    18

    Default

    Fair enough - seemed like standard thread drift to me, but the dude abides..

  18. Likes Omicron liked this post
  19. #90
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Pittsburgh
    Posts
    16
    Likes (received)
    3

    Default

    Will do. Thanks.

Page 6 of 7 FirstFirst ... 2 3 4 5 6 7 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •