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Thread: Kacem Zoughari interview - "Kaiden" problem

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    Default Kacem Zoughari interview - "Kaiden" problem

    I was reading this recent article by Kacem Zoughari so called well known Japanese History and Martial Arts researcher and practitioner.

    http://ruhadojo.blogs.se/2010/03/01/...aiden-8097775/

    Combat: So talking about menkyo and menkyo kaiden, we often see people claiming such things. Could you tell us something about that please and what kind of documentation and licensing should traditionally go with such titles.

    KZ: This is a very good question. Actually I’ve dealt with it in my thesis, and it takes me around 20 pages and 50 footnotes.
    20 pages and 50 footnotes later he says this

    Kaiden means “stairs”, so menkyo kaiden can be understood as the certificate of all the different levels of the school.
    Kaidan 階段 stairs

    Kaiden 皆伝 initiation into an art or discipline
    Bill Reddock
    Los Angeles IaidoKai

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    Quote Originally Posted by wreddock View Post
    Kaidan 階段 stairs

    Kaiden 皆伝 initiation into an art or discipline
    Actually, "kaiden" 皆伝 means "total transmission", but your point stands.
    Josh Reyer

    Swa sceal man don, ţonne he ćt guđe gengan ţenceđ longsumne lof, na ymb his lif cearađ. - The Beowulf Poet

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    Quote Originally Posted by Josh Reyer View Post
    Actually, "kaiden" 皆伝 means "total transmission", but your point stands.
    Okay.

    Exactly how does it stand?

    In quicksand?


    - Mark Spada

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    Quote Originally Posted by wreddock View Post
    I was reading this recent article by Kacem Zoughari so called well known Japanese History and Martial Arts researcher and practitioner.

    http://ruhadojo.blogs.se/2010/03/01/...aiden-8097775/



    20 pages and 50 footnotes later he says this



    Kaidan 階段 stairs

    Kaiden 皆伝 initiation into an art or discipline

    There a point here?

    Or are you being purposefully arrogant?


    - Mark Spada

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    Quote Originally Posted by markspada View Post
    There a point here?

    Or are you being purposefully arrogant?


    - Mark Spada
    kaiden 皆伝
    kaiden, in an art as well as in budo, is the fact that one can be teach all of the arcane(奥義) of his style (流派) from the master. see also 奥許し (okuyurushi).
    芸能・武道などの道で、師からその流派の奥義をすべて教えられること。奥許し。[免許ーの腕前]
    and then a menkyokaiden 免許皆伝, still from daijisen,

    in the practice of martial arts and arts ( traditionnal arts in general), it's the fact that a master (will) totaly initiate a disciple to the arcarne of this practice.
    芸道・武道で、師匠が弟子にその道の奥義を残らず伝授すること。
    there is no other entry with phonetical homonyms, there are numerous "kaiTen" or "Gaiden", but there is only one KaiDen as well as in the daijisen or in the edict. so my guess is there is a point because as mentionned earlier, stairs is kaidAn.
    Last edited by durandal; 3rd March 2010 at 07:43.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markspada View Post
    There a point here?

    Or are you being purposefully arrogant?
    - Mark Spada
    I think if you take a little time to read the thread you will understand that I was surprised to see Kacem Zoughari , someone who claims substantial academic credentials in Japanese language and Japanese Koryu did not understand the difference between Kaiden and Kaidan and in fact appears to base his entire explanation of Menkyo kaiden on the wrong word.
    Bill Reddock
    Los Angeles IaidoKai

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    Just an observation - it's a transcription from an interview, not an article written by his hand.

    Perhaps he was making a play of words and the interviewer didn't catch up on that (people who don't speak japanese have a tendency to do that) - maybe he said "kaidan" but it was transcripted as kaiden.
    William Ustav
    Bujinkan Kasuga Dojo, Stockholm

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    Quote Originally Posted by markspada View Post
    Okay.

    Exactly how does it stand?

    In quicksand?
    On the rock solid fact that the "kaiden" of "menkyo kaiden" has absolutely nothing to do with stairs, or the Japanese word for stairs.
    Josh Reyer

    Swa sceal man don, ţonne he ćt guđe gengan ţenceđ longsumne lof, na ymb his lif cearađ. - The Beowulf Poet

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Will View Post
    Just an observation - it's a transcription from an interview, not an article written by his hand.

    Perhaps he was making a play of words and the interviewer didn't catch up on that (people who don't speak japanese have a tendency to do that) - maybe he said "kaidan" but it was transcripted as kaiden.
    I don't think so. It's very clear he doesn't know the difference. Take a little time to actually read the article and you'll see him talking about Menkyo Kaiden being about 'stairs'
    Bill Reddock
    Los Angeles IaidoKai

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    Quote Originally Posted by wreddock View Post
    I don't think so. It's very clear he doesn't know the difference. Take a little time to actually read the article and you'll see him talking about Menkyo Kaiden being about 'stairs'
    I know Kacem and I know that he knows the difference between two different words. I've read the whole interview many times. Where else - except for in the sentence quoted - does he talk about menkyo kaiden being about stairs?

    You can't base someone's knowledge on a phrase from a transcription from a two hour long interview.
    William Ustav
    Bujinkan Kasuga Dojo, Stockholm

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    And after that you get also levels like Chu gokui, Gokui and finaly Menkyo kaiden.
    Kaiden means “stairs”, so menkyo kaiden can be understood as the certificate of all the different levels of the school. So when you receive this you’re (normaly) good, enough to create your own school, but not enough good to become the next successor of your master, or the next soke.
    here is the quote, I have read quickly, and the other things look correct in the yurushi section, so what happened with the kaiden thing? Maybe should we ask Zoughari himself and the author of the interview to see from which side comes the error?!

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    Quote Originally Posted by durandal View Post
    here is the quote, I have read quickly, and the other things look correct in the yurushi section, so what happened with the kaiden thing? Maybe should we ask Zoughari himself and the author of the interview to see from which side comes the error?!
    I think that would be wise

    Here is the entire interview, btw: http://shinseidojo.wordpress.com/200...acem-zoughari/
    William Ustav
    Bujinkan Kasuga Dojo, Stockholm

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    wow it's him...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8uWxPaAZE0

    damn i now know i need to enter inalco now, just for the sake of it! 800 pages of thesis to finish studying under hatsumi....

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    Hi Everyone,


    Here is an email from Dr. Zoughari

    Dear Mr. Kohler,

    Thank you very much for this message and all the discussion who went with. I see the problem, and its really nothing big to me. By "stairs" I wanted to express that kaiden (皆伝) of menkyokaiden (免許皆伝), means of course total transmission, but with the word "stairs" I wanted to explained that there are different level to be understood and master before received this type of title (menkyokaiden).

    By "stairs", we can understand one important aspect hide behind the word kaiden, which is the process of relation with the master, the studies and practice requested for received such title of menkyokaiden............of course this aspect can be deeply explained.


    I am enough aware of the difference meaning between the two words, Kaiden(皆伝) and Kaidan (階段). So if people think I made a mistakes here without being aware of what I am talking about, its fine, no one was there. Its really sad how people around the world and especially in martial art community are waiting and expecting the mistakes in order to start a polemic and conclude directly without talk directly with the one who is aimed. not being aware of the context, the situation as well as the different aspect of
    the discussion...

    But, once again, what I wanted to express was somethings not really been explained about the full transmission or kaiden, which is the process of studies and practice of different arts and the different levels. Because the word kaiden of menkyokaiden doesn't really express the process of practice, studies and relation with the master. But just the full transmission. Some can even ask the full transmission of what? In the history of classical martial arts and japan, its not rare to buy or sell menkyokaiden to someone, it still exist nowadays.

    Anyway, if this different way to see Japanese kanji can create a kind of "buzz" about my skill on Japanese studies, I don't care. No one was there during the interview, because during the interview, which was filmed and very long, I also explained the difference between the two words, Kaiden and Kaidan, and the confusion as well. but for what reason this explanation was not add I really don't know.

    To conclude this small discussion, I would like to say that everything is about a vertical ascension for the one who search and practice, so in martial arts, classical or whatever, even in life, everyone use "stairs" or kaidan, some prefer use it to go down, other to reach the top, some, prefer watch others stairs and critic them, some doesn't have a chance, some doesn't realize it, some fall, etc......................

    Everyone choose his own way, but should take care before start to talk about someone's saying, skills,level, or spirit, without met the one they critics before or talk to him directly, because this is also part of kaiden and kaidan, because its always about fact, reality and direct relation.

    Dear Mr Kohler, feel free to post what I wrote above if it can help. Please forgive me if this created a problem on your very good website, I apologize for that. thank you very much for your attention to me, most sincerely Kacem
    George Kohler

    Genbukan Kusakage dojo
    Dojo-cho

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    Quote Originally Posted by George Kohler View Post
    Hi Everyone,


    Here is an email from Dr. Zoughari
    thanks for the answer!

    well it was very surprising from a doctor in japanese he would make such a mistake so i was very curious about the reason.

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