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Thread: Kacem Zoughari interview - "Kaiden" problem

  1. #16
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    Perhaps it's my English ability but the reply by Mr. Kacem Zoughari does not make any sense to me.
    Gusta Paulo Novak

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gusta in Japan View Post
    Perhaps it's my English ability but the reply by Mr. Kacem Zoughari does not make any sense to me.
    I'm afraid it's your English ability.

    He's basically trying to explain that he was using kaidan as a kind of metaphor.
    Cory Burke
    ゴゴゴ!

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by paradoxbox View Post
    I'm afraid it's your English ability.

    He's basically trying to explain that he was using kaidan as a kind of metaphor.
    So it seems. But then, there are a number of English words that work fine for that, e.g., "stairs", "levels", without ever bringing in the word "kaidan" into it. Mr. Zoughari's use of it was needlessly confusing and misleading at best.
    Josh Reyer

    Swa sceal man don, žonne he ęt guše gengan ženceš longsumne lof, na ymb his lif cearaš. - The Beowulf Poet

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    My English ability is excellent (at least in my opinion) and I still find Mr. Zoughari's answer confusing. Perhaps it would make sense if we had a full transcript of the interview. Or perhaps he just made a mistake. Even monkeys fall from trees, after all, and it is conceivable that even a genuine expert of the Japanese language and culture could have a slip of the tongue during an interview.
    David Sims

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  5. #20
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    English is not Dr. Zoughari's primary language. He is from France.
    George Kohler

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  6. #21
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    I feel that Dr. Zhougari's style may owe something to the tradition of the head of his martial arts organization who characteristically makes free and creative use of homophones in explaining his ideas.

    If you read any of Dr. Hatsumi's more recent writings, you will get a taste of what I mean.

    It might also be relevant that the French academic tradition is, in style, somewhat different from the Anglo-American. Although I wouldn't claim any great familiarity, there does seem to be a liking for philosophical riffs that seem somewhat out of place in English.

    Of course, while kaidan/kaiden is confusing to those with a Japanese linguistic background, it seems the interview was intended for those without that background and, in that context, might be seen as appropriate.

    However, and I'm sure Dr. Zhougari would appreciate this himself, the devil is in the details, and questioning those details, though somewhat abrasive at times, is a necessary part of making informed judgments.

    Chris Hellman

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Hellman View Post
    Of course, while kaidan/kaiden is confusing to those with a Japanese linguistic background, it seems the interview was intended for those without that background and, in that context, might be seen as appropriate.
    I see it as the exact opposite. In front of an audience familiar with Japanese terms and language, I could see making a joke or ironic comment linking menkyo kaiden with kaidan. But in front of an audience without the background, such a comment would only be confusing. As this article amply demonstrates. According to Dr. Zoughari, he was quite clear on the difference between "kaiden" and "kaidan", and yet in the finished product he's quoted as saying that the "kaiden" of menkyo kaiden means "stairs". I doubt such confusion would have occurred if the interviewer had a strong background in the Japanese language.
    Josh Reyer

    Swa sceal man don, žonne he ęt guše gengan ženceš longsumne lof, na ymb his lif cearaš. - The Beowulf Poet

  8. #23
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    Yes, you're right - this kind of kotoba asobi (if such it was) is only appropriate with an audience who knows what he is talking about. I meant that someone with no knowledge of Japanese would not be confused because they would take it at face value, and go away believing "menkyo kaiden" had something to do with stairs.

    I feel the distinction between legitimate connections and more playful parallels between words is usually maintained by most traditional teachers (at least in my experience). That is the way I prefer it.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by wreddock View Post
    I think if you take a little time to read the thread you will understand that I was surprised to see Kacem Zoughari , someone who claims substantial academic credentials in Japanese language and Japanese Koryu did not understand the difference between Kaiden and Kaidan and in fact appears to base his entire explanation of Menkyo kaiden on the wrong word.

    But does he discuss kaiDEN or KaiDAN

    you seem to mention Kaidan but the quote to discuss says Kaiden

    As already posted with out all the details of the interview its easy to jump in and attack someone.
    Last edited by poryu; 27th March 2010 at 06:58.
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