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Thread: Jujitsu to Judo and BJJ

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by T. J. View Post
    Check out "Yawara 知られざる日本柔術の世界" by Yamada Minoru. In Japanese, this is an anecdotic series of essays that you might enjoy if your interest is in Japanese Jujutsu history. You might find what you are looking for there.

    ISBN 4-89422-243-4 Printed February 1, 1997.

    If you find a resource that you can't get where you live, I have a friend who specializes in getting Japanese language texts for a fee. He would also most likely know some specific books that would address your specific interests.
    Thank you! I will look into this. I think I can get a used copy off of amazon.jp.
    Al LaPrade

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    Default Smart folk think alike. Or is it smart a----s?

    Kit,

    ...What you said.

    I continuously stress to my students that in kata-based training, they have to develop first proper body movement, i.e., precision, or at least come close to the proper body mechanics before working on speed, and then lastly strength/full speed and power, or as you said, the "at the speed of the fight." For our "uke," that means, therefore, that you aren't simply a wet rag; there's intent in the initial attack and then you really have to learn how to take all sorts of counters without getting your face or other parts of your body slammed into the ground in a bad way. So far, not many of my students have managed to reach that point, unfortunately. I think it would help, indeed, if they had more free form grappling or sportive training, like some judo or wrestling, but what can you do? There's only so much time in a day for working stiffs.

    Amazing how we start at different points and then end up pretty close at the top.

    Wayne Muromoto


    Quote Originally Posted by Hissho View Post
    Thom

    If you are familiar at all with Sebastian Pritchard/Belisarius/Bastiat Blogger, he did a block on decision making and training at the Mid Atlantic Tactical Conference. He discussed a "training continuum" that research suggests we should be following - what he called a P-S-S model:

    Precision

    First you train for precision in your movements (or tactics, or decision making...) - doing it right and efficiently. The precision standard needs to stay the same as you add

    Speed

    In this vein, the precision standard needs to be realistic so that speed can be achieved. Once realistic speeds are achieved you add

    Stress


    This follows along some lines that Force Science suggests as well - that you must "train at the speed of the fight" to be developing proper combative schema.

    From what I have ever learned from legitimate koryu people, from Ellis Amdur to others discussions of their training and still others writings, this is exactly how kata is supposed to be done...

    It is interestingly enough a prescription for how you do Force on Force training as well.


    If one is simply "walking through" kata, never increasing the speed and stress, then one is basically training to demonstrate kata - not training how to fight.

    If your goal is to demonstrate kata, more power to you!!

  3. #48
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    I think a lot of people would say its smart a_ _ .... speaking for myself of course. My passion overrides my good sense and social graces sometimes.

    I'm working on it.

    As for coming out at the same place, I think so. Personally seeing more connections between old and new combative training methods was a turning point. I just did not abandon the combat sport platform, which I think is extremely important. Its combat sport tactics where you have to take care. Even then, for most people most of the time, combat sport is all you'll need, and I do believe its better prep for modern self defense needs.

    When you carry a weapon though, and at the "high end threat" level, certain things in combat sport need modification through training in a weapons based mode. There is where a "classical education" as a sort of finishing school has some validity. In the end I think its what you want/need your jujutsu to be.
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

  4. #49
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    Default Musings...

    Kit,

    I think we have a spectrum of possibilities for a range of different people, to cover what they seek in a martial or self-defense system. Not all people are capable of working to top conditioning sportive training five days a week in a modern sportive art because of work, family, personal health, etc. Neither, in fact, were many samurai even during the Warring States Period, since they assumed a lot of administrative, judicial, financial and other posts. If you look at the Edo Period, you see a range of training situations, from kata-only to primarily contest-sports only in both kenjutsu and jujutsu. The modern period led to the separation of "koryu" kata training from resistive, sports related training, but remnants of pursuing dual training methods even in koryu still exist, such as when I met the current soke of the Hontai Yoshin-ryu, who was also a godan in Kodakan judo. He said, self-effacingly, that the Yoshin-ryu was an "antique" compared to the sports judo, but he enjoys teaching a long, traditional system, and then on separate nights, he mixes it up in judo.

    Technique makes up for a lot, but dang, if I trained as hard as a professional boxer, wrestler or MMA professional and THEN did my koryu, I'd be pretty good too. Training and conditioning do matter. While kata training allows for less stress and strain on the body, the sheer intensity of a training regime of that kind would make anybody, a sports athlete or a koryu kata person, very effective, in my opinion. The problem is, most people can't train at that intensity, 24/7, all year round, because we're not professional athletes. Again, for that matter, neither were many of the samurai, so they had to figure out ways around not being able to train every day, 24 hours a day, so they pared things down to kata and free training, and did both, or one or the other, depending on their time, situation and other necessities.

    I used to do that too, do judo as well as koryu training, but time and age precludes me from helping out in judo any more, so I plead doddering senility for not keeping up...but on the other hand, that's the nice thing about koryu training. You don't have to stop entirely if you get a bit older and creakier.

    One person who I consider a top Takenouchi-ryu person never did modern sports budo. But he played rugby in college. He brings a real toughness and intent to his kata that can be lost among the rank and file who haven't done stress-based sports. My own top student was a godan in kendo and actually used his jujutsu inadvertently and spontaneously in some problem situations, and another really good student (currently in the military) cross-trained with a Krav Maga specialist and pretty much laughed his way through basics self-defense training by messing up everyone else (except the Krav Maga guy, who stood his own with him). Both of my students are excellent in their kata, both bring a mental attitude that I find very hard to imbue in many of my other students, even those who do modern sports budo. It's an individual kind of thing, in some ways. Some folks have it, some don't. I think it can be learned, but not easily, if you haven't really faced down adversity, whether physically, mentally and/or emotionally, in sports, life or actual situations. Just my own two cents' worth.

    I find good arguments for both extreme sides, but in reality, I tend towards pragmatism throughout my budo training history. Like I tell my students, you could be the toughest fighter in the world and then slip on a banana peel and knock yourself out in a street fight. The thing that kills you is the thing that you just can't plan for or guard against. So we should stay humble and pragmatic. Or, as Otto Friedrich said, "...The lessons that it teaches are fundamentally the lessons that all great battles teach. That even the most carefully prepared plans often go wrong. That lucky breaks are very important.

    Wayne Muromoto

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    Weird, I have been thinking exactly along these lines since these last posts... ...and how to express a certain way of looking at the training process that covers the gamut.

    First, 100% agreed very few have the time or inclination to pursue these things as professional athletes, or professional 'warriors' - and even those folks practice at varying degrees of ability and intensity. Recognizing that is very important, as is knowing our limitations.

    If being "combat effective" is part of our focus, we have to accept that this approach means testing our limits at times in order to continue to strive to improve - even if its just a little bit. I think that a good rule of thumb to follow was laid down by Musashi - "be victorious today over what you were yesterday." I think your examples of the rugby player, and your students that "have it" and those that "don't" speak to this. Its funny, but you see it with professionals too, even so-called elite SWAT team people; some do, some dont. Some "have it" more than others that also "have it." Some push their limits, some do what they need to to get by.

    I don't think that the "samurai" were any different, especially as time went on. We tend to romanticise them as well - thinking of them as all Navy SEAL/Crossfit Champions/MMA fighters. A few probably were, in much the same ratios as today. I tend to think that the founders of many of the systems we practice today were like that - the equivalents of the elite of the elite athletes or tactical operators; the Delta or Michael Jordans of their disciplines.

    Even among professionals these types are rare. The vast majority of the rest of the warriors practicing were nowhere near that level, lacking in talent, drive, intensity, opportunity etc. that it takes to achieve that kind of thing.
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

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    Kit --

    On the conditioning, an interesting phenomenon in college football today is taking place at Oregon State. The idea is simply to pick up the pace and keep it sped up. First couple quarters, everybody hangs, then in the third and fourth quarters, the other team starts getting tired and making mistakes.

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    Thing we have to be careful about is that those are games with set time periods and strategies like that can be developed, and training programs implemented to support them. They can be "gamed." It is an insidious thing in combatives training as well, and we have to be vigilant and honest with others and ourselves regarding gaming our training.

    In a sudden lethal hand to hand encounter you probably don't want to "wait until your opponent gets tired" before ramping it up yourself. It is one of the fallacies of the early BJJ performances in MMA: I will just lay there underneath you with you in my guard waiting for you to get tired. Then attack!!

    That is not reflective of BJJ as a whole, nor is it a very good idea as a fighting strategy: BJJ still starts with the idea of "surviving" those bad positions, and you may have to do that, its good to know that especially against better grapplers, but that is not where you want to be; the more you can keep moving to better your position and gain independence of action in an actual situation, the better.
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

  8. #53
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    Default On gaming...

    Kit,

    Another example of dangerous "gaming": When I was doing karate, I'd see point tournaments where some folk would deliberately stand against their opponent sidewards crouching, turning their torso away, covering up the front of their torso with their arms, so that the legal point areas (stomach, chest, front face) were hard to reach. Problem was, that exposed the back of their neck, kidneys, back, side and back of knees...which were "illegal." Such tournament competitors would often jump in, try to score a point, and then quickly retreat by turning their backs completely to the opponent while still close up and literally run away and out of the sparring area. Maybe that was a good way to score points. But it was NOT a good way to survive a no-holds-barred encounter where those areas are free targets.

    It calls to mind one of my teachers who had done judo, aikido, and several different koryu in his youth. He said once that he tried his hand at kendo but it didn't work out, even though he enjoyed its hearty exercise. When some kendo folk would make an attack on him, they would do it very nicely, continue through and past him, and keep on going, whether the attack was successful or not, as if it was basics men uchi practice. He would turn around and immediately strike them on the head. He was told that wasn't kosher, but he said, "If they turn their backs on me, I'm going to whack them."

    For kendoists: I will note that this person also had the highest regards for the top kendo sensei and players he met, who never let their guard down in free play, ever. Usually, these were the older guys who thought of kendo more as a martial art that incorporated free play, less as a sport, than many modern day advocates.

    Such arguments are not limited to e-budo's online discussions. A kendo acquaintance notes that disgruntlement with the sport of kendo vs. the martial art of kendo is constant, as are such arguments within judo, karatedo, and so on. Likewise, you will see that koryu schools also are literally grappling with the paradox of advancing training techniques, yet retaining tradition and the ryu's unique flavor. It's just that most of the turbulence is usually not evident to us outsiders.

    Wayne Muromoto

  9. #54
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    Grappling with Paradox - sounds like a new title for an Ellis Amdur book!

    Yes- oddly perhaps it went the other way with what is now called NLTA (Non-Lethal Training Ammunition) training. Simunition was inspired by Paintball. You can sometimes see a creep into gaming in some force on force training because the projectiles are non-injurious (though painful!)..

    This is why to do NLTA/Force on Force training professionally, having a skilled lead instructor and experienced and scripted role players is very important. In a sense, some of the "unreality" or lack of realism is needed to ensure realism, (another paradox to grapple with...) because you simply cannot train lethal combat completely realistically. We have to progressively foster both decision making, tactical, and technical dynamics that serve that end.

    Here is where I had a kind of epiphany, and started seeing the koryu training (again, at least as Ellis had introduced me to, and some others within my limited sphere indicated they were at least occasionally training) as having that kind of system and progression built in - senior in the lead role, eliciting behavior through challenging the student "just beyond" his or her level, and engaging the psychological dynamic to the point that they can based on their attitude and skill, and the use of training weapons that while safe(r), are still dangerous enough to cause threat of pain or injury. Some of the "unreality" is there in order to maintain relative safety while progressively pushing it to the edge.

    We can see, though, how changing something like the hard wooden weapon to a softer one, could lead increasingly toward the game mentality, and ultimately the game becoming the point of the training. For something like sword, not ever really going to be an issue. But because something like jujutsu - armed and unarmed - still has some practical application and its practitioners may have an inkling toward that goal, there would be things to pay attention to.

    You can train in a kata-only combative format (many modern combative and self defense arts do exactly that). You can also train that with a built in force on force component that gradually looks in some ways like "free-fighting" although it is really not - it just extends the "kata," breaks the kata, or allows the end of the kata to change. Perhaps the kata is not so set in stone, either. Doing Vehicle Based Jujutsu evolutions recently with Craig Douglas, I was struck by how it was "kata" and how it was "force on force" and how it was "free fighting" all rolled into one.
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

  10. #55
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    Gaming is what you're discussing. Change one thing, and everything else changes, too. That's the nature of the beast.

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    Sorta. To a certain extent all training is, I guess.

    What I mean, though, is the "setting up" of onesself to respond to something in the best possible manner, even though in "reality" one would not be able to do so.

    In a modern context, this would be the guy who suddenly starts every drill with his hand on the grip of his gun in the holster, pre-setting his defense for the weapon retention drill that is about to happen. The guy who unsnaps one of his retention straps in preparation for getting his gun out quicker in the drill so he can do better. You see it all the time. The guy who will never let someone get an established side control position on him in setting up a ground drill but rather always slides a leg in to at least start in half-guard. Not only are these people short changing themselves in training for difficult situations - in which "looking good" will be the last of their concerns- they are creating potentially fatal motor programs. If I work the street with a fully snapped in holster, but do all my qualifications and force on force training only half snapped, I may in fact be unable to figure out why I can't draw my gun when under life and death stress I simply forget that second snap. Positions apply as well.

    Here is where some of the "unreality" of force on force and kata begin. I've seen officers argue with trainers over starting out on their backs on the ground, or allowing a trainer to start with his hand on the officer's gun, or starting at an initiative deficit with, say, a hood over their heads so they cannot sneak a peak and "game" a response. "That's silly, its unrealistic, it would never happen to me in real life..."and so on.

    And then it does.

    Thing is, you simply can't mimic attentional deficit or "tunnel vision" to realistic levels in any training because everyone knows its training. So, you have to allow for a certain amount of unrealistic set up to at least be forced to face some of the initiative and positional disadvantages that actual encounters may entail. This set up can be gamed in ways that could be counter-productive to survival.

    In fact, I find it very interesting that with older classical systems, you see some of these attentional, initiative, and positional deficits codified in kata. In the later ones, it seems you see more equal initiative dueling, and more "tori always in control" of the encounter jujutsu type stuff. That to me is a step away from combative preparation and becomes martial art for art's sake.
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

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