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Thread: Jujitsu to Judo and BJJ

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    Default Jujitsu to Judo and BJJ

    Is it true that because BJJ and Judo were derived from traditional Jujitsu they are the lesser versions of the art they were derived from?

    Just wondering because I have always heard that Judo and BJJ are the 'sport' versions of Traditional Jujitsu.

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    Great question. Judo and BJJ are clearly sports-- Kano, the founder of Judo, very deliberately set out to create a sport when he was making judo, and dearly treasured the hope that judo might one day become an Olympic event (as it now is).

    I wouldn't say that this automatically makes them "lesser" than their koryu roots. If you are looking for a koryu art with all of the associated traditions, esoterics, kuden, etc., then judo has indeed lost much of that. If you are looking for a way to get very good at throwing people very, very quickly, then judo might have the advantage over its koryu predecessors.

    I suspect when you say "lesser" that you are wondering if judo and BJJ are somehow less combative or martial than their predecessors. From what I've seen, judo and BJJ can be practiced and taught in a way that is very "martial." They can also be practiced and taught in a way that is very "sporty"-- with more emphasis on getting points than on real-life situations. I suspect the question of whether they are more sport or martial art comes down to what the teacher and his students think that they are doing. If you are only interested in practicing a sport and collecting tournament wins, then a sport is what you will get. If you are interested in studying something with combative application, then you can get that too.
    David Sims

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    My opinion is, in all likelihood, worth exactly what you are paying for it.

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    Well, lets put it this way...

    Your parents are derived from your grandparents. Are they lesser versions of your grandparents?

    You are derived from your parents. Are you a lesser version of them?

    Do you have kids? Are they lesser versions of you?

    Some in your grand parents generation might look at your parents and you and say "Them kids stood in line on 2 for 1 day when they gave out stupid." Some might look at your parents and you and say "Something good going on there in them kids."

    It all depends on who you talk to, doesn't it?

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    Default "Lesser versions?"

    Good one, Neil.

    Koryu jujutsu once used to be practiced like koryu kendo. Half kata, half banging away at each other. Kata and jiyugeiko were done equally. The old jujutsu schools nearly gave as good as they got when competing in sportive matches with Kodokan judo, which basically incorporated anything that they thought was good from any and all jujutsu schools to form a truly national, non-family-bound system.

    Nowadays, old style jujutsu doesn't do much "randori" because, heck, if you wanted to really get into that, just do judo. Or BJJ. Or whatever. It's not a question of which is better, it's which do you want to focus on to get wherever the heck it is you want to go. Kata geiko is great if you aren't interested in competition, just want to develop form and a bit of self-defense, sorta, and if you want to do something when you're over the hill (take me, for example) and/or don't have time to get in Olympic-calibre shape. Jiyugeiko is great if you're young, want to test yourself against others in a competitive manner, and want to develop really great stamina and conditioning. And if you have a lot of time and energy.

    No offense meant to either side of the situation. I've done judo for years as a young man, and now I do classical jujutsu as an old, tottering senile idiot.

    Wayne Muromoto

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    1993 called and wants its thread back....

    Funny how our thinking changes and develops in these things. Mine at least has...

    Judo and BJJ aren't "martial" or "tactical." How can they be? They are done in the equivalent of underwear or nearly naked, in bare feet, and not in any dress/kit/weapons worn in the streets, on the battlefield, or in "pursuit" or "arrest" operations on criminals or "bandits," modern or medieval.

    I look at it this way - much of koryu was the "hand to hand combat," the "defensive tactics," and the "officer survival" of its time. As with modern versions, not intended for competition but rather to give/train a man at arms in a repertory of skills he would likely need in a combative situation whether battlefield, "law enforcement," or street defense.

    Some of it may translate well in today's environment, some does not either because we do things differently and have different armor and weapons today, or because it simply isn't efficient in a modern context. As Wayne noted, it suffers from lack of force on force training - but this is just as true with most of today's combatives/DT systems.

    An issue does arise with a concern for training safety. You can't just go out and "randori" with some of the dangerous moves, armor, or weapons, and keep it totally real. For some this is a crutch of sorts, they retreat to the hackneyed "we're too deadly to freestyle" to cover lack of interest, lack of physical conditioning, or insecurity about their overall "combat effectiveness."

    It is in fact part of their strength that Judo/BJJ, MMA, as no doubt with sumo "back in the day," are competitive athletic outlets because of the very fact that they can be done full out in relative safety, with dynamics that mirror actual fighting. They can and have provided a tremendous force multiplying effect both technically and conditioning wise to any hand to hand combat/DT system (koryu or modern),

    Any "warrior" will be better with a strong base in competitive grappling. In many cases, the "sport" fighter, based solely on his sport-centric skills and conditioning, is superior to the non-force on force training traditional or modern combatives exponent even in a no-rules combative encounter. What lacks in tactics and strategy will often be made up for in fighting skill and athleticism.

    Traditional systems probably adapted elements of competitive styles for various reasons - they recognized the advantages that such training offered, they wanted to stay relevant by contesting with the groups that were doing that, or in a crisis of "what exactly are we, combat or competition?" Some interesting stuff out of the Kobusho (later, of course) had them basing their training in randori and randori-centric systems, perhaps for some of the same reasons.

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    Default Man, I'm in an agreeable mood...

    ...What Kit said.

    As a "By the way..." note, I have a student who went through US Army basic training, a tour in Afghanistan and is set to do another tour.

    He did Takeuchi-ryu with me. That includes the forms dealing with fighting in heavy armor, with and without side weapons, such as daggers, swords, spears, truncheons, clubs. He found that such training made more sense than some of the more modern MA-derived techniques because moving in full gear with vests, etc., more closely resembled fighting in yoroi than rasslin' in t-shirts and shorts.

    And, he was in the best possible shape to make the moves work.

    I miss the catch-as-can train-till-you-drop judo training, and it really gets you into shape. I think you learn a lot about adjusting to a resisting opponent. But you can only do so much of it. Donn Draeger or someone else used to call judo "the Great Crippler." I think that goes for a lot of other force-on-force systems. When you get old and want to continue training, you have to either ease up on it or find some other venue. Something to think about.

    Wayne Muromoto

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    Quote Originally Posted by wmuromoto View Post
    He did Takeuchi-ryu with me. That includes the forms dealing with fighting in heavy armor, with and without side weapons, such as daggers, swords, spears, truncheons, clubs. He found that such training made more sense than some of the more modern MA-derived techniques because moving in full gear with vests, etc., more closely resembled fighting in yoroi than rasslin' in t-shirts and shorts.
    It never ceases to amaze me that modern militaries keep trying to re-invent the wheel by attempting to adapt modern civilian fighting systems to the demands of military combat in full gear. Oh, if only some civilization had developed and maintained fighting systems designed for armed and unarmed close-quarters combat on uncertain terrain while wearing 60 pounds of gear....
    David Sims

    "Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - Terry Pratchet

    My opinion is, in all likelihood, worth exactly what you are paying for it.

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    Default Postscript

    ...Regarding force on force:

    It does help immensely to be in good conditioning, BTW. That aforementioned student in the active military said he had a grand time doing hand-to-hand training because he got to mix it up with folks who did nothing, BJJ, and/or high school wrestling. Everytime he tied them up or forced a submission, the drill instructor would yell at him that what he was doin' was "illegal." It would still work in the field, though.

    Still, he found that he really learned a lot by cross training with a modern systems fellow, someone who was once in the Israeli Defense Force and was very good at Krav Maga. I suspect they really!beat up on each other to see what worked and what didn't.

    In summary, I think what Kit says is a pretty good answer (haven't we gone through this before?) but there are tons of caveats. It's not a black and white answer.

    Wayne Muromoto

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    Default Ps Ps...

    ...That is not to say that ALL classical jujutsu or kobudo systems are great. There are lousy modern McDojo's and, from what I've seen on YouTube, even legit classical koryu that really suck. When it comes down to it, it basically gets to be mano a mano as to viability.

    Wayne Muromoto

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    Bigger problem for the military is that hardly anyone, to include senior officers, goes out with just 60 pounds. The standard load for a combat infantryman in Iraq and Afghanistan is currently as much as 130 pounds. Simply walking with that much weight, especially in Afghanistan, at 12,000 feet, takes enormous physical fitness and a very high pain tolerance.

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    Default Yep.

    ...Lot of Takenouchi-ryu moves involve barely moving from the centerline to avoid a strike, throwing the guy down with a yank and then stomping down on him while cutting a vital unprotected point. We reviewed the methods when my student came back from his first tour. They were very simple and implied carrying about 40 lbs. or more of yoroi. My student said, "Yep. That works for me." The less he moved the better. He implied that 40-odd lbs. was sissy stuff.

    130 lbs.??? Yow. That's incredible weight to carry. I was told that they carry a lot of gear. But 130 lbs.????!!! Wow. That implies really different movement compared to fighting in tights or just a keikogi. I'd probably croak right away.

    Wayne Muromoto

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    Quote Originally Posted by wmuromoto View Post

    In summary, I think what Kit says is a pretty good answer (haven't we gone through this before?) but there are tons of caveats. It's not a black and white answer.
    I think that is probably the best way to put it, really.

    The ultimate formula is to have the proper mindset, effective tactics and techniques, and the body skills and conditioning: Where have we heard that before?

    Shin - Gi - Tai.

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    Wayne --

    In Aghanistan and Iraq, "The average rifleman's fighting load was 63 pounds, which meant he was carrying on average 36 percent of his body weight before strapping on a rucksack. The average approach march load was 96 pounds or 55 percent of an average rifleman's body weight, and the emergency approach march load average was 127 pounds or 71 percent of an average rifleman's body weight."

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...3/ai_n6123997/

    Helicopters, trucks, and civilian porters carry the really heavy stuff.

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    One hot summer day, one of my students, a Seattle fire fighter, brought out his gear. One of us put on the coat, the pants, the helmet and the oxygen tank and took either the uke or tori role in Araki-ryu kenjutsu. I believe the gear totaled about 70 pounds. We found that other than being very hot, it hardly slowed down our movements (against a partner who was "unarmored") - and we made no adjustments or changes whatsoever in the execution of techniques. If nothing else, it established that the methodology was, in fact, originally established for some level of armored conflict.
    Best
    Ellis Amdur

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    Quote Originally Posted by wmuromoto View Post
    ...What Kit said.

    As a "By the way..." note, I have a student who went through US Army basic training, a tour in Afghanistan and is set to do another tour.
    We have been in touch lately and hopefully we'll meet up if he ever makes it back this way. Hopefully we'll have better luck than you and I have had!

    RE: gear

    Remember your personally worn battle-rattle is only part of it, and that was probably true then as well.

    Our typical SWAT kit would be the helmet, tactical vest with heavy trauma plates (front and back) and extra ballistic panels for shoulders and neck, four to eight loaded 30 round magazines (more for our soldiers), handgun and belt, plus ammo for that, some miscellaneous small tools (Taser, knife, personal breaching tool) and a blow out kit.

    Then a loaded M-4 rifle, with flashlight, optic, fore grip...

    Then, depending on role/mission, additional weaponry (gas/less lethal gun and munitions), breaching tools/gear....

    THEN additional things carried like ladders, ballistic shields and "tactical blankets" (similar in some cases the the Japanese shields use on the battlefield, more like a body bunker) all of which are very heavy and must be moved and manipulated under control to maximize tactical movement and noise discipline.

    Imagine 20 guys in all this stuff having to move together, with stealth, to a location at o-dark-thirty when even small sounds seem magnified and the clank of metal on metal is very telling.

    Some interesting issues that arise in all this gear, in addition to that mentioned above, go to basic posture to keep from throwing your back out (for the more grizzled veterans, at least ), the ability to go down to the knee/s and rise up from the ground in a straight line and as a unit, both quickly and under smooth, slow, control, and so on.

    I can't remember where Wayne wrote of having newer students unable to do the latter kind of basic movement - and how important that basic movement is, though it would probably be lost/not considered important to folks who just wanted to get to the "good stuff." That IS the good stuff and where your fighting platform is built.

    It underscores the need for certain types of conditioning as critical for any kind of longevity and ability to maintain fighting readiness. Probably why there is a growing trend in the professional community toward viewing some soldiers and SWAT as "tactical athletes."

    Karl Friday's work on early samurai has some interesting insights regarding gear and armor, how it was worn, the advantages and disadvantages - shedding some light on stuff that would apply in the later era.

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