Likes Likes:  0
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2
Results 16 to 30 of 30

Thread: Thrusting a sword through sand/gravel?

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    9
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by paradoxbox View Post
    then try the same thing after you slightly dull the blade by dragging it on some steel wool or some other surface lightly. the same action will produce a horribly bloody cut that will take ages to heal. (i know this from shaving with a straight edge razor.. )
    I shave with, restore antique, and make new straight razors
    If you got cut like that with a straight, it was nowhere near sharp enough. A 'shaveready' straight should be able to cut a hair if it falls on the edge of the blade.

    A sharp edge can indeed cut quite deep, and provided it was clean, you can simply close the wound with a band aid and it will heal quickly and without a scar. Cuts from a dull or chipped edge otoh will indeed take ages to heal.

    It is also true that the sharper an edge, the more likely it is to chip.
    That said I don't know if anyone would treat his sword like that just to provide this questionable advantage.

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    273
    Likes (received)
    10

    Default

    I am still trying to find actual data that supports this "dull blade" concept. So far, it doesn't make history for warriors to dull their swords-blades.
    Richard Scardina

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    9
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Sword polishing has always (generally speaking) been done by professional polishers, and historically, the practical aspect outweighed the aesthetic aspect. If a slightly duller edge would have been preferable for use in battle, the polisher would have created a slightly duller edge.

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    1,147
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Just to be clear here:


    I don't automatically believe everything I see in movies. This particular movie didn't seem like a ninja-magic-superpower type movie and by the looks of it I figured it had a more solid basis in realism, unlike Zatoichi (2003) for instance.
    Fredrik Hall
    "To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." /Confucius

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    273
    Likes (received)
    10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
    Sword polishing has always (generally speaking) been done by professional polishers, and historically, the practical aspect outweighed the aesthetic aspect. If a slightly duller edge would have been preferable for use in battle, the polisher would have created a slightly duller edge.
    Well, it wasnt sharpen just because a polisher thought so.

    From its very design the sword and the sword maker, was about the cutting of the blade.

    It didnt matter if a dull blade can do damage, it was a matter to cut, slice, or penetrate deeply, thus the reason for sharpeness. (Just like a sharp knife for a tomatoe)

    The pride was not only about polishing, which was part of the maintenance, but sharpening was also a part of the maintenance, and there was pride how well a blade could cut.
    Richard Scardina

  6. #21
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Yamagata, Japan
    Posts
    218
    Likes (received)
    5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
    Sword polishing has always (generally speaking) been done by professional polishers, and historically, the practical aspect outweighed the aesthetic aspect. If a slightly duller edge would have been preferable for use in battle, the polisher would have created a slightly duller edge.
    There are in fact different polishes for shiny nice art swords and ones that are being used for practice with the later being somewhat less polished than the former. That said the primary reason for that is that the extremely fine art polishes tend to be subject to more corrosion and the like from finger oils, etc and just one use can ruin the polish completely (makes the sword look like hell with nice fingerprints all over the blade), where as the "duller" (if we want to split hairs) polish used for, for example, swords used in iai does not show just "oil damage" as it were, as readily.

    With that said, in the 13 years since I first came to Japan, I have talked with many martial artists, sword smiths, token dealers and the like (many of them being involved in two or three of the said activities at once) and I while I have had discussions on all matter of sword myth, stories of sword usage, things you'd actually do with your blade, edge versus shinogi blocking and just about everything else but I have NEVER once heard of this idea of thrusting your sword into sand to make it duller or that "duller" was preferable for damage to the enemy. As was mentioned before, swords with extreme polishes sometimes are subject to chipping more readily as well, but the "sharpness versus damage to the enemy" factor is just something that has never come up anywhere (in fact I first heard about it on this very thread).

    For what it is worth,
    Rennis Buchner

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Seattle, Washington, USA
    Posts
    6,226
    Likes (received)
    117

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Scardina View Post
    Well, it wasnt sharpen just because a polisher thought so.

    ...The pride was not only about polishing, which was part of the maintenance, but sharpening was also a part of the maintenance, and there was pride how well a blade could cut.
    I think you're a bit unclear about what a sword polisher does. "Polishing" is the final step in the production of a blade, and it refers to sharpening the edge and smoothing the surface, not just to "making it shine." In feudal-era Japan, as today, polishing (sharpening) is often done by a specialist rather than by the smith.

    A sword polisher does also restore dull blades, and today bringing out the aesthetic qualities of the blade is an important function; but first and formost the sword polisher's job is to refine the edge.
    Last edited by Brian Owens; 6th May 2010 at 06:31.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    273
    Likes (received)
    10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Owens View Post
    I think you're a bit unclear about what a sword polisher does. "Polishing" is the final step in the production of a blade, and it refers to sharpening the blade. In feudal-era Japan, as today, polishing (sharpening) is often done by a specialist rather than by the smith.

    A sword polisher does also restore dull blades, and today bringing out the aesthetic qualities of the blade is an important function; but first and formost the sword polisher's job is to refine the edge.
    Thank you with utmost sincerity for the post.

    However, not making excuses, I am from a culture / mindset, that takes a word literally
    Richard Scardina

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Seattle, Washington, USA
    Posts
    6,226
    Likes (received)
    117

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Scardina View Post
    Thank you with utmost sincerity for the post.

    However, not making excuses, I am from a culture / mindset, that takes a word literally
    That can be problematic when dealing with an art from a culture with a different language than the one being used in discussions.

    "Sword polishing" is a reasonable translation of togi, but doesn't convey the entirety of what togi does.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    9
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Also, polishing is the correct terminology. Polishing is the action of removing scratches and imperfections from a surface. When a sword is sharpened, that process (polishing) is exactly what is being done to the surface material surrounding the edge.

    Sharpening and polishing are 2 words that can be used to describe the same thing, as long as the edge not chipped or really blunted. If visible damage needs to be removed, then the term polishing is no longer appropriate.

    A sword polisher does both things though. The sword as it comes from the smith is not really sharp. It is only sharpened enough to insure that the blade is structurally sound. All the actual sharpening / polishing is done by the sword polisher, not the smith.

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Madrid, Spain
    Posts
    17
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    I read recently in a book ( I can't remember wich one) that thrusting a sword into sand to scratching the blade was to prevent the edge for chipping

    I hope this helps
    No weapons? Not martial.

  12. #27
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    273
    Likes (received)
    10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wakimono View Post
    I read recently in a book ( I can't remember wich one) that thrusting a sword into sand to scratching the blade was to prevent the edge for chipping

    I hope this helps
    As with many books, some facts are twisted.

    Speaking of books, what are some good reference books about swords?
    Richard Scardina

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Seattle, Washington, USA
    Posts
    6,226
    Likes (received)
    117

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Scardina View Post
    ...Speaking of books, what are some good reference books about swords?
    The Samurai Sword by John Yumoto is one of the classic English-language books on the subject. It's a bit dated (copyright 1958), but has information on blade construction, lists of prominant smiths from the various pre-Meiji periods, etc.

    The Craft of the Japanese Sword by Leon Kapp, Hiroko Kapp, and Yoshindo Yoshihara is a newer book that has lots of good photographs, and concentrates on the work of modern smiths who work mostly in the traditional manner.

    The Art of Japanese Sword Polishing by Setsuo Takaiwa, Yoshindo Yoshihara, Leon Kapp, and Hiroko Kapp is an in-depth look at the work of sword polishers.

    My copies of the latter two are in storage right now, but one of them (I think it's The Craft of the Japanese Sword, but I'm not positive) also has a chapter on crafting saya.

    There are other works directed primarily at sword collectors, but these are good general reference works for anyone interested in an introduction to the art and craft.

    My former Iaido sensei, Tatsuhiko Konno, is a token, and he used to sell a video about polishing, but his Web site seems to be no longer active. If I can find a source I'll post it here.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    9
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Owens View Post
    The Art of Japanese Sword Polishing by Setsuo Takaiwa, Yoshindo Yoshihara, Leon Kapp, and Hiroko Kapp is an in-depth look at the work of sword polishers.
    I have this one. It's a masterpiece.
    It goes in depth in the polishing / sharpening matter, but it also discusses the structure and the metallurgy of Japanese swords.

  15. #30
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    JAPAN
    Posts
    1,616
    Likes (received)
    108

    Default

    A well known smith who makes blade and replica for museums tells me they forged lots of blades before a battle and used them with the rough grinding marks still on them. On many occasions I have visited him and we have tried out a new blade before polishing. He mostly makes 'usable' blades for tameshigiri.
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


    http://www.hyoho.com

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •