Morote Gyaku Gote Kumo Garami

[Lucy Jones]

I was shown this technique for the first time a couple of weeks ago. On further reflection I have decided that I am puzzled by the purpose of the kumo garame finish. To my uneducated eye it seems 'inefficient' in that you have to get down and then up again in a short space of time. Tate ichichi and sekoshi ichichi seem more logical, and these take into account multiple attackers.

I would be very grateful if more experienced kenshi could enlighten me on the purpose and effectiveness of this finish. Under what circumstances would you use kumo garame?

[Jeremy Williams]

Lucy,

It really couldn't be simpler: you have just subdued a dangerous Japanese schoolgirl for some typically terrible offence like crossing a road against a red light and now you need time to take catch your breath before summoning the forces of law and order; or you have just done similar in a Japanese restuarant and want to enjoy the rest of the ball game while waiting for said forces to turn up...

Seriously, though, it would be a lot easier to maintain that position for an extended period, and the position itself is probably more tenable long-term than the others you mentioned. If there were multiple attackers, I don't think you would be considering pinning anybody in any position for more than seconds, in any case.

[sean dixie]

Lucy,

It really couldn't be simpler: you have just subdued a dangerous Japanese schoolgirl for some typically terrible offence like crossing a road against a red light and now you need time to take catch your breath before summoning the forces of law and order;

Lets see you try that with this Japanese schoolgirl

[Rob Gassin]

Lucy,

The only ground fighting move in the curriculum and you knock it!!!!

The obvious reason for doing Kumo Garame is that it looks cool.

i think it also teaches a few principles of how the legs and bodycan be used to achieve arm control.

Application - to be used when you need to restrain someone whilst avoiding bullets being shot at waist height.

[Lucy Jones]

Rob
Oh dear I did not realise this was our only ground fighting technique! However I do feel that I have a point of reference to compare ground fighting/restraint techniques with another art and that is precisely why I asked!

I believe that this technique was originally a choke out on the carotid, in which case one's adversary (or the malevalent Japanese schoolgirl) would be unconcious pretty quickly, but the way it is taught now may make it appear slightly less efficient. When first shown the technique we were taught to restrain briefly and then get back up and push the attacker away. I suppose this shows technically that we have the tools of the technique for a grading situation, but as a stand alone technique done in that way it seems to have lost some of its raison d'etre.


Not that I am advocating that we start choking people out in the dojo! I am not volunteering for that!!

[Rob Gassin]

Lucy,

I did not know the technique was originally a carotid choke. If so, why was it modified? Especially given that Shorinji kempo has a number of chokes and counters to these.

Carotid chokes in particular are great as they cause unconsciousness but to not cause permanent damage,as tracheal chokes do.

Cheers,

[Lucy Jones]

Sensei Pete explained that it had been modified for 'safety reasons'. I know no more than that.

Maybe there is a difference with how it is taught in different places. I remember when I was in Honbu in 2005 we were doing Tsubame Gaeshi. We all started performing the shuto onto the front of the shoulder as we had been taught 'for safety reasons' and we were admonished for giving each other 'shoulder massages'. 'Strike to the neck otherwise the technique is no good' was the message!

[merlin98]

I remember when I was in Honbu in 2005 we were doing Tsubame Gaeshi. We all started performing the shuto onto the front of the shoulder as we had been taught 'for safety reasons' and we were admonished for giving each other 'shoulder massages'. 'Strike to the neck otherwise the technique is no good' was the message!

When we practiced tsubame gaeshi with a partner, we were told/taught to put our hand by the neck to protect it during the strike. We were also taught, if memory serves correctly, for the partner to step into the shuto, using the momentum to increase the effectiveness/power of the shuto.

It was never practiced full force, but it helped our partner do it properly.

__________

Paul Chan

[Tripitaka of AA]

I think I finally worked out which technique we are talking about. I'm not sure, but maybe it wasn't in my syllabus.. or maybe I just did it and forgot it. Is it that one where you sit down with one leg over their arm, like an arm bar, while digging your toes into their ribs?

Anyhow, just for fun, can anyone explain the "kumo" and "garami", with regards to Kanji? It isn't on Kenseikai as an animated GIF, but I notice from there that it is garami and not garame.

[David Dunn]

Anyhow, just for fun, can anyone explain the "kumo" and "garami", with regards to Kanji? It isn't on Kenseikai as an animated GIF, but I notice from there that it is garami and not garame.

Spider's web?

[Steve Williams]

[QUOTE=Tripitaka of AA;485704]I think I finally worked out which technique we are talking about. I'm not sure, but maybe it wasn't in my syllabus.. or maybe I just did it and forgot it. Is it that one where you sit down with one leg over their arm, like an arm bar, while digging your toes into their ribs?
[QUOTE]

Thats the one......

Either good memory or sad old guy

[Tripitaka of AA]

sad, pathetic, miserable, dishevelled and wasted old has-been. Yep, that's me

Our only ground-fighting technique, surely you haven't forgotten Bappodaichi which was featured on a video clip a few months back.

[Omicron]

Is this the technique?

[Tripitaka of AA]

Aaaaah yes. I have fond memories of that one from my grading. Peter van den Assem had rather stiff shoulder joints and I was concerned that my technique might look bad if I didn't get his shoulder down on the ground for the walking across bit... poor bloke must have been in agony as he was tapping out the fastest rhythm you can think of with his free hand

[Jeremy Williams]

Lets see you try that with this Japanese schoolgirl

I never said it would be easy!

David, it's 蜘蛛絡.

The first two mean "spider" and the last one signifies "involvment" or "entwining". Self-explanatory. Oh, and I think that "garamI" is correct, not "garaME". However, Kaiso may well have decided to use non-standard pronunciation. I will check.

HTH