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Thread: Koryu Densho (scrolls & transmission documents)

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    MarkF Guest

    Wink

    License of transmission?

    Could someone please come to my house and take a look at my 86 Mercury?

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    Post Koryu Densho (scrolls & transmission documents)

    Greetings...

    I have seen that usually the Soke of each ryuha have a set of scrolls. These may vary and have different names for different puposes. Can anyone have a correct definition and name of each of the different scrolls given?

    Example: Densho, Makimono, Torimaki, etc...

    Best,

    Arnold Vargas
    Genbukan Satoichi Dojo
    &
    Tsunami-Ryu Bujutsu
    Arnold - Kanatokogakure Shugenjutsu

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    The scroll that passes lineage is usually called Soden [Entire Transmission] -- there may be other names; remember, there is no single hard-and-fast rule when it comes to the Japanese language (especially in budo).

    Various styles may have a particular name for their soden, such as MJER's Tora-no-maki [Tiger's Scroll]; but, it is still a "soden."

    Regards,
    Guy
    Guy H. Power
    Kenshinkan Dojo

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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by KAMUII
    [B]Greetings...

    I have seen that usually the Soke of each ryuha have a set of scrolls. Arnold Vargas.

    ...............................
    As Mr Power says its all Soden.

    I don't think there any hard rules to go by. Some Ryu have almost no written evidence as people were most reluctant to put anything that might get into the wrong hands. A lot of it is written in such a way that only a practitioner would understand. Without doubt there is almost no Shomen giri in my Ryu. But certain previous Shihan have written this to disguise the real intention, particularly during the Tokugawa Era.

    Some time ago someone asked the present descendant of the fiefs Lord, (Tachibana Sama) if there was any written evidence of my Ryu. They were told no.The people in question have since moved on and those faithfull remain. Then one day when we sat drinking coffee the subject was brought up again. Tachibana said just wait a minute. He came back with a box full of scrolls written by previous Shihan of the Ryu.

    NHK television did program on me some time ago. One viewer was a lady who's descendant was a shihan of the Ryu had left scrolls and notes with the family. Not knowing that the Ryu still existed they had handed them down through the family for generations. She came forward and presented them to me.

    Without the practical experience the writings are not of much use. Like wise the practice tends to wander off track without a chance to refer to notes on fundamentals.

    Hyakutake Colin

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    Arrow Let me make it a bit clearer

    Thank you for your replies.

    Ok, lets see if I get more detailed or specific...

    Makimono is a scroll used for or what type of scroll is it?

    Torimaki is a scroll used for or what type of scroll is it?

    Densho is a scroll used for or what type of scroll is it?

    I would like to have a definition on these...is it possible?

    Any replies are welcome again. Thank you.

    Best,

    Arnold
    Arnold - Kanatokogakure Shugenjutsu

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    Default Re: Let me make it a bit clearer

    Originally posted by KAMUII
    Makimono is a scroll used for or what type of scroll is it?


    Makimono is a scroll.


    Torimaki is a scroll used for or what type of scroll is it?


    TorA no Maki is as Guy said "Tiger scroll". This is just a name for a upper level scroll in some ryűha.


    Densho is a scroll used for or what type of scroll is it?


    Densho means "tradition book" which is a book of x-ryűha and usually describes kata, etc.
    Eric Weil
    "Kuji first, Taijutsu last"

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    Default Re: Let me make it a bit clearer

    Originally posted by KAMUII
    Torimaki is a scroll used for or what type of scroll is it?

    Densho is a scroll used for or what type of scroll is it?
    Arnold
    Hi Arnold,

    I've seen "torimaki" used in one book by Andrew Adams, but don't know if this is a correct way of calling it a scroll. In my dictionary it describes it as a "follower, hanger-on." Also, with the same Kanji it can be pronounced "Torimaku" meaning "surround, encircle."


    [Edited by George Kohler on 09-12-2000 at 01:15 AM]
    George Kohler

    Genbukan Kusakage dojo
    Dojo-cho

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    Thanks George and Eric for your replies too.

    I get a better picture now, it was a little confusing when people sometimes talked about the scrolls of a ryuha and mentioned these three, so I had to ask. Thank you again all for your help.

    Domo Arigato Gozaimashita!

    Best,

    Arnold Vargas
    Genbukan Satoichi Dojo
    &
    Tsunami-Ryu Bujutsu
    Arnold - Kanatokogakure Shugenjutsu

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    Eric is correct, but let me add my own readings:

    Makimono is a scroll used for or what type of scroll is it?

    Torimaki is a scroll used for or what type of scroll is it?

    Densho is a scroll used for or what type of scroll is it?
    Makimono [maki= roll; mono= thing]. "Scroll" Ageneric term (like "kimono") meaning "something rolled up." [Kimono means "something that is worn"]. A "kakejiku" is a hanging scroll.

    Tora no maki [tora= tiger; no= possessive; maki= roll]. "Tiger Scroll." This is the senior ranked scroll of Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu. Whoever possesses this scroll may claim to be an inheritor. Earl Hartman has researched the Tora no Maki and finds there were multiple awards during any one soke's lifetime. Perhaps Earl will care to comment later.

    Densho [den= transmit/transmission; sho= writing/book]. This may be in the form of either scroll or kirikami ["cut paper" -- so called (I think) because it is a sheet of cut paper, as opposed to a scroll). The densho may or may not transmit a school's teachings. Mine is more or less a document stating that I have been granted transmission of the ryu by the soke -- essentially, it states I am a "full-fledged" disciple instead of a student. In some styles the future soke is selected by the incumbent from only those who have been awarded densho.

    Regards,
    Guy
    Guy H. Power
    Kenshinkan Dojo

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    Arrow

    Thanks Guy!

    All of you have been of great help. I thank you all again.

    Best,

    Arnold
    Arnold - Kanatokogakure Shugenjutsu

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    Interesting discussion. I was wondering how prevalent it is for a soke who claims to teach a koryu art to refuse to show their scrolls or any proof of their claims. It seems that it is just the opposite and that they are willing to show them to the right people and under the right circumstances.
    John Lindsey

    Oderint, dum metuant-Let them hate, so long as they fear.

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    I find it annoying when ryu-ha choose not to let some ligitimate research authorities inspect at least lineage related documents and records.

    Besides giving crediblity to their claim (whether they seek it or not), it also helps historians track inter-relationships and what not between ryu-ha and other bodies. Every little bit helps.

    I'm not saying the records should be available to the public on demand, mind you, but I don't see that harm in allowing a researcher to verify and inspect aspects of their densho.

    Anyway, in regards to the term "kirigami", this was apparently in reference originally to a certificate that has a corner torn off of it, to be retained by the issuing party for future authentication if needed. Kind of like how a hanko is used now as a "wari-in" to register a certificate or document, a kirigami was a more crude way of registering a certificate.

    I don't know that the practice of tearing the paper is still done literally, but many styles have retained this term. The level of transmission in which this is awarded seems to vary alot between ryu-ha.

    Even Shinkendo uses this term in our ranking structure.

    Regards,

    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Guy, et al:

    I want to preface my remarks by stating right away that I am by no means an expert on transmission in MJER, although I have looked into it a little bit due to what appeared to me to be a strange lack of general knowledge of the career of my late MJER teacher, Masaoka Sensei.

    That being said, I do not know of any scroll of transmission in MJER known as the "Tora no Maki" (the "Tiger Scroll", I presume). I am not familiar with any of the interim licenses in MJER, so perhaps such a scroll exists.

    All I can say is that according to Masaoka Sensei`s book, and based upon a telephone conversation with Noda Toru Sensei, Masaoka Sensei`s senior disciple, the equivalent of menkyo kaiden in MJER is the "Kongen no Maki", the "Scroll of Origins" (Guy, perhaps this is the scroll to which you were referring). It is my understanding from Noda Sensei that this is the highest rank possible to achive in MJER and that the posession of the Kongen no Maki indicates that the holder is entitled to confer the Kongen no Maki on others (that is, he has the power of promotion to rank), thus continuing the lineage. It is my understanding that this means, in effect, that any holder of the Kongen no Maki can legitimately be considered the inheritor of the entire tradition. Masaoka Sensei received the Kongen no Maki from Oe Masamichi Sensei, who apparently conferred it upon between 3-6 men (the three I know of are Hokiyama Namio S., Mori Shigeki S., and Masaoka S.)

    Hope this helps. I am sure that Hyakutake san could give us more information on this, at least as far as it relates to MJER.

    Earl
    Earl Hartman

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    It is my understanding from Noda Sensei that this is the highest rank possible to achive in MJER and that the posession of the Kongen no Maki indicates that the holder is entitled to confer the Kongen no Maki on others (that is, he has the power of promotion to rank), thus continuing the lineage. It is my understanding that this means, in effect, that any holder of the Kongen no Maki can legitimately be considered the inheritor of the entire tradition. Masaoka Sensei received the Kongen no Maki from Oe Masamichi Sensei, who apparently conferred it upon between 3-6 men (the three I know of are Hokiyama Namio S., Mori Shigeki S., and Masaoka S.)

    Hope this helps. I am sure that Hyakutake san could give us more information on this, at least as far as it relates to MJER.

    Earl
    ............

    Hello Earl
    Iwata Sensei and Terao Sensei (Iwata sensei's student) tell me the same as you say, that only three people received Kongen no Maki. There is a picture of Shigeki Sensei's on my site.

    http://www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword

    I am not sure about Kongen no Maki being conferred on other inheritors of the tradition. As I understand Kongen no maki is MJER's name for Menkyo Kaiden. Iwata sensei received two being the inheritor and student of two of Oe Sensei's students.

    Conveniently the only person to receive this from Iwata Sensei, Terao Yoshiteru sensei lives about 5 minutes from here. I will ask him next time I see him.

    Regards Colin (Hyaku)

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    Joanne Miller Guest

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    Hello all,
    It's kind of side track from the MJER issue but since we are on the thread of MJER sucessions I was wondering if anyone is aware of an equivalent system of Makimono (If any) used in Muso Shinden Ryu and if the highest license issued in Muso Shinden Ryu is Menkyo Kaiden? ( I haven't heard of the Kongen no Maki used in Muso Shinden Ryu before and so was thinking it was soley unique to MJER)

    Just curious does MJER practice in parts or in full anything similar to the "I Kumi tachi no kurai" sets as done by Danzaki sensei of Muso Shinden Ryu ? (i.e Daisho Kyo , Daisho Tachizume , Kuraidori, e.t.c) If so does anyone know if the waza share the same names?

    Very interesting stuff in this thread so far

    Cheers,

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