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Thread: Koryu Densho (scrolls & transmission documents)

  1. #61
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    Talking Don't blame the messenger!

    Hi Russ,
    Hey!!.....I just translate the things! You think I read em'?
    Thanks for the clarification on that. It makes sense with the Kanji anyways....I had figured it for an admission grade. Like a basic white belt I guess but had no real idea.
    Regards.
    Ben Sharples.
    智は知恵、仁は思いやり、勇は勇気と説いています。

  2. #62
    Meik Skoss Guest

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    Okuiri-sho is, as R. Ebert says, an "agreement/contract" between a teacher (i.e., a menkyo kaiden) and a person to teach all of the Shinto Muso-ryu curriculum (exclusive of the gokui waza). It isn't, per se, a license. Other Shinto Muso-ryu licenses (sho mokuroku, go mokuroku, menkyo, and menkyo kaiden) cover various parts of the curriculum and imply a level of competence in those waza.

    Each ryu has its own schema for what licenses are called; some of the terms are identical, some are different, and identical terms may refer to very different levels of licensure in different ryu. It is all, as usual, "case by case."

    Hope this helps.

  3. #63
    coyote Guest

    Default how is menkyo kaiden transmitted?

    I'd like to know how menkyo kaiden is transmitted. Since this transmission represents the whole knowledge of the ryuha, I wonder if there's some kind of ritual or esoterica involved in it or if this is just a formality to recognize the high level the exponent has already achieved.

    Regards,

  4. #64
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    Depends on the ryu, and the teacher. It can be a very formal affair or simply sent through the mail! I think we all expect it to be a this big, formal event dripping with esoterica, but it can be anti-climatic in its lack of such stuff.

    The student will have known the teacher for many years, and their relationship will normally be very close. The lack of esoterica is often replaced with lectures and explanations on the material in the scroll. But, as I said, there is no one way of doing it...
    John Lindsey

    Oderint, dum metuant-Let them hate, so long as they fear.

  5. #65
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    Default Not the whole enchilada

    Hey Coyote,

    Just a point -- you stated that Menkyo Kaiden represents that the "whole knowledge" of a ryuha has been transmitted to the individual receiving this credential. This, however, is not true of some of the older koryu. There is one higher "license," that being granted from the present Soke to future Soke. (This is true in the tradition that I am involved with.) From what I understand there is a whole list of techniques that only the headmasters of said traditions know.

    Brian Stokes

  6. #66
    Mike B. Johnson Guest

    Default Menkyo Kaiden holders?

    Hi,

    With all the controversy surrounding the Tanemura situation, I got to thinking. How many legit Menkyo Kaiden holders are there in the west?

    And by "legit" I mean people teaching a traditional Japanese system with a verifiable history. Disqualified, are people offering Menkyo Kaiden in non-traditional systems founded outside Japan. An example would be "American Karate" or modern jujutsu systems like BJJ.

    Perhaps riding the fence to some but definitely accepted in my mind would be.....Toshishiro Obata's Shinkendo or Chuck Clark's Jiyushinkai. If awarded a Menkyo Kaiden in Shinkendo or Jiyushinkai by one of these gentlemen I'd accept it as legit even though the system was founded outside Japan.

    Disclaimer!

    I realized this list does not necessarily reflect the only authorities of budo at the highest levels of experience teaching here in the USA. People like Quentin Chambers, Larry Bieri, Mike & Diane Skoss, Hunter Armstrong, Ellis Amdur, Guy Power, Don Angier, Karl Friday, Nathan Scott, Dave Lowry etc.... hold very advanced licenses or skills. They just do not possess Menkyo Kaiden licenses.



    Here's all the legit Menkyo Kaiden holders I know of. I'm sure there are more. Please feel free to add those I am unfamiliar with.


    Phil Relnick / Shinto Muso ryu - awarded by Tsueno Nishioka

    Toby Threadgill / Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu - awarded by Yukiyoshi Takamura

    Pat Hendricks / Iwama ryu Aiki Ken & Aiki Jo - awarded by Morihiro Saito


    BJ

  7. #67
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    Default Hakkoryu Menkyo Kaiden

    There are at least five Hakkoryu Jujutsu Menkyo Kaiden in the United States presently recognized and in good standing with the Hombu Dojo in Japan.
    John Cole

  8. #68
    Mike B. Johnson Guest

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    Mr Cole,

    Isn't Hakko ryu unique in that a Menkyo Kaiden does not symbolize the highest teaching license awarded? I believe the highest license awarded in Hakko ryu is called a "San Dai Kichu"

    The only two holders of this license in the US that I know of are Dennis Palumbo in Colorado and Brian Workman in .....Oregon??? I also understand there is someone in Ohio holding a "San Dai Kichu".....or is that Workman?

    Thanks for the response.

    BJ

  9. #69
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    Yes, the highest ranking in Hakkoryu Jujutsu is Sandaikichu (Three Great Foundation Pillars).

    Within the West Coast branch of the organization that I am a part of the license holders are as follows:

    Brian Workman, Menkyo Kaiden Shihan Sandaikichu
    Ralph Verde, Menkyo Kaiden Shihan Sandaikichu
    Steve Glaser, Menkyo Kaiden Shihan Sandaikichu
    Gordon Kiokawa, Menkyo Kaiden Shihan Sandaikichu
    Scott Newkirk, Menkyo Kaiden Shihan Sandaikichu

    Best regards,
    John Cole

    [Edited for corrections by request of the author. NS]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 2nd February 2004 at 08:38.
    John Cole

  10. #70
    Mike B. Johnson Guest

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    Hi,

    I just remembered the name of the Hakko ryu guy in Ohio holding a "San Dai Kichu". His name is Michael LaMonica. I believe he is a police officer who was also a student of Sensei Kaminoda of the Tokyo police.

    BJ

  11. #71
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    James Wright- Asayama Ichiden-ryu. He is from Scotland, but lives in Japan.
    John Lindsey

    Oderint, dum metuant-Let them hate, so long as they fear.

  12. #72
    Mike B. Johnson Guest

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    Hello,

    Guys, Here's another one I was just notified about via e-mail.

    Professor William Bodiford / Kashima Shin ryu, Menkyo Kaiden/Shihan

    BJ

  13. #73
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    Default

    If I recall correctly, Richard Pietrelli received menkyo kaiden in Kashima Shin Ryu, also.

    If you're going to include Hakko Ryu, which originated in the '40s, I demand equal consideration for Danzan Ryu, which was founded in the '20s. Okazaki sensei issued kaiden no sho to a number of his students in 1948. One of the recipients, Sig Kufferath, did likewise in 1993. Tony Janovich and Bob Hudson followed his example just last February.

    At present there are a couple of dozen DZR practitioners holding legitimate kaiden diplomas.
    Yours in Judo,

    Brian P. Griffin

  14. #74
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    Hello,

    Mike B. Johnson wrote:

    "I realized this list does not necessarily reflect the only authorities of budo at the highest levels of experience teaching here in the USA. People like Quentin Chambers, Larry Bieri, Mike & Diane Skoss, Hunter Armstrong, Ellis Amdur, Guy Power, Don Angier, Karl Friday, Nathan Scott, Dave Lowry etc.... hold very advanced licenses or skills. They just do not possess Menkyo Kaiden licenses."

    Just to clarify things a bit, I believe that some of the individuals above hold ranks that are in every way equal to menkyo kaiden. Some ryuha simply do not use the name "menkyo kaiden" but instead offer ranks using different names which are every bit as valid, being the top rank or license offered by the school and passing on the complete transmission.

    Regards,

    Ron Beaubien

  15. #75
    Mike B. Johnson Guest

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    Ron,

    I agree with you. How about this? Lets say Menkyo Kaiden or equivalent license that is symbolic of the complete transmission of a traditional ryu. That's what we're curious about afterall.

    BJ

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