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Thread: Itto Tenshin Katori Shinto Ryu Video

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    Default Itto Tenshin Katori Shinto Ryu Video

    The history and questionable claims of the Itto Tenshin Katori Shinto Ryu have been discussed numerous times on this and other forums. However, I've not been able to find any video on youtube of this style. Does anyone have any video of the Itto Tenshin Katori Shinto Ryu they would be willing to share?

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    Never heard of it.

    You didn´t mean Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto ryu, right? Just for clarification.
    Michael Reinhardt

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    Agreed. There's Itto Ryu (still extant as Ono-ha Itto Ryu and other lines, but not the original), and then there's Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu, never heard of the two names being combined though. Where did you come across it?

    EDIT: A quick search seems to bring up a few references for Tenshin Itto Ryu, as well as Itto Tenshin Ryu. Tenshin Itto Ryu is legit, coming from Nakanishi-ha Ito Ryu, however Itto Tenshin Ryu is a modern, made up system coming from an Aiki instructor (one Fred Lovret), near as I can find.

    I can't find any video of Tenshin Itto Ryu, although there is a reasonable amount of footage of other lines of Itto Ryu (especially the Ono-ha Itto Ryu).
    Last edited by Chris Parker; 23rd August 2011 at 08:25.
    With Respect,
    Chris Parker.

    兵法二天一流剣術 Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu Kenjutsu (https://www.facebook.com/MelbKoryuKenjutsuKeikoKai/)
    天真正伝香取神道流兵法 Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu (https://www.facebook.com/MelbKoryuKenjutsuKeikoKai/)
    熟練道場武道兵法 Jukuren Dojo Budo Heiho (www.budomelbourne.com)

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    No, it is not Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu. From what I have read there are several dojo in the US that teach it. May be connected to Fred Lovret.

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    The school has characteristics of modern aikiken and movie chambara. They use a kamae that looks something like Itto-ryu's in no kamae or yo no kamae but they hold the sword up much higher. In this video, if I were uchidachi I would have whacked the crud out of the shidachi once he turned his back to me in such close maai. But that's because I am a jerk

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UR7B0lLDLdU

    Enjoy (?!?),
    Christopher Covington

    Daito-ryu aikijujutsu
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    All views expressed here are my own and don't necessarily represent the views of the arts I practice, the teachers and people I train with or any dojo I train in.

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    Christopher,

    It looks like that clip is aikiken from the Tenshin Dojo in Miami, FL. I guess what I am looking for is video of Fred Lovret's style. Thanks,

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    Hi Steven,

    Can I ask why you are looking for video of Fred Lovret's approach? From reports I've been coming across, he has little to no formal training in anything to do with sword, to the point where he apparently had a photographer hold a copy of Deity and the Sword so he could copy the poses....

    Here's some interesting reading: http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/sh...93-Fred-Lovret
    With Respect,
    Chris Parker.

    兵法二天一流剣術 Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu Kenjutsu (https://www.facebook.com/MelbKoryuKenjutsuKeikoKai/)
    天真正伝香取神道流兵法 Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu (https://www.facebook.com/MelbKoryuKenjutsuKeikoKai/)
    熟練道場武道兵法 Jukuren Dojo Budo Heiho (www.budomelbourne.com)

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    Hey Chris,

    Basically, I have read about the questionable claims in various places over the years, one of them this past weekend. As an observer of JSA, both koryu and gendai, I'd like to see it for myself and make up my own mind. Is it is just omori ryu or some type of a "hybrid" between Itto Ryu and Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu.

    There seem to be several dojo in the US that teach this, such as http://www.chicagobudokai.com/ , but they offer no real explanation as to where the style came from and of course, no video.

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    Default Small correction...

    Chris, Ono-ha Itto ryu IS the original line, since Ono Tadaaki was the direct successor to Itto Ittosai...

    Anyway, if the clip linked by Christopher is of the "style" Steven was looking for... well... To be polite I'd say it doesn't look like Itto ryu (and not like Katori Shinto Ryu either, from what I've seen in the past)...

    Best regards,
    Andreas
    Andreas Hauser, Member Onoha Ittoryu study group in Munich, Germany

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    Hi Steven,

    Cool, thanks for that. To be honest, from the reports around the place, I don't think it's a hybrid of anything, other than in name. I think it's just what Fred thought swordsmanship is, without any real guidance or understanding, so I wouldn't hold out too much hope with it. But all the best with your search.

    Thanks, Andreas. I knew that Ono Tadaaki was Ittosai's successor, but was lead to believe that what he taught was altered from Ittosai's original art (during his time teaching the Tokugawa Shogun's), hence a different line, and therefore the term "Ono-ha", with the original ceasing after Ittosai's other original students passed. I wasn't aware that the Ono-ha was regarded as the mainline (although certainly as the oldest, and seriously respected!).

    In terms of the video, it's nothing like Katori from what I've seen either. The movements are completely different, the angling is different, the kamae are different... we could go on for hours like that! If anything, it bears a tiny superficial similarity to some Yagyu Shinkage ideas (outflanking and attacking the forearms/wrists, deflective actions with the sword to enter etc), but it's, at the very very best, an incredibly pale imitation.
    With Respect,
    Chris Parker.

    兵法二天一流剣術 Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu Kenjutsu (https://www.facebook.com/MelbKoryuKenjutsuKeikoKai/)
    天真正伝香取神道流兵法 Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu (https://www.facebook.com/MelbKoryuKenjutsuKeikoKai/)
    熟練道場武道兵法 Jukuren Dojo Budo Heiho (www.budomelbourne.com)

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    Hi Chris,

    yes, I also believe there were alterations to Ittosai's teaching, but that is something every soke of any style has the right to do, as far as I understand it.
    I also believe that the ryu was codified a few generations after Ittosai. I'm not sure if the ryu was called Itto ryu by anyone back in Ono Tadaaki's time (I think I read something about this a while back, but can't remember now).

    Of course one could say that after some changes the ryu is not original any more, but the pros and cons to this could be discussed endlessly. It's just my own opinion that the Ono-ha is the mainline, since there never was a real, pure "Itto ryu" lineage and all other existing Itto ryu lines trace back to Ono-ha in the end...

    To Steven,
    I hope you find the information you were looking for, but I fear you will just be able to confirm what others here and elsewhere said: That there is no Itto Tenshin Katori Shinto Ryu and what is taught is all fabrication based on little knowledge of other styles...
    Andreas Hauser, Member Onoha Ittoryu study group in Munich, Germany

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    Yep, agreed on all that Andreas. It is absolutely within the rights of a Soke to alter the teachings as they see fit, or most appropriate. Interesting that there wasn't an "Itto Ryu" initially (as a fully codified system which was passed to Ono Tadaaki), I was under the impression that there was. Always enjoy getting better information!
    With Respect,
    Chris Parker.

    兵法二天一流剣術 Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu Kenjutsu (https://www.facebook.com/MelbKoryuKenjutsuKeikoKai/)
    天真正伝香取神道流兵法 Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu (https://www.facebook.com/MelbKoryuKenjutsuKeikoKai/)
    熟練道場武道兵法 Jukuren Dojo Budo Heiho (www.budomelbourne.com)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Parker View Post
    Agreed. There's Itto Ryu (still extant as Ono-ha Itto Ryu and other lines, but not the original),
    I can tell you that the party line of the Ono ha Itto ryu is that there's is the closest to the original Itto ryu. But why wouldn't they say that? It would be interesting to ask representatives of the Hokushin, Mizoguchi, etc lines which is the closest to the original. Maybe they would agree with Sasamori, maybe not.

    Interesting parallel: the Kashima Shinryu believes it is doing the true Shinkage ryu and traces its lineage back to the same guys who other schools with "Kashima" and "Shinkage" in their names claim to be their founders. There is actually plenty of room for them to all be correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kendoguy9 View Post
    The school has characteristics of modern aikiken and movie chambara. They use a kamae that looks something like Itto-ryu's in no kamae or yo no kamae but they hold the sword up much higher. In this video, if I were uchidachi I would have whacked the crud out of the shidachi once he turned his back to me in such close maai. But that's because I am a jerk

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UR7B0lLDLdU

    Enjoy (?!?),
    This looks like yet another take on Ichi no Tachi, actually. So, yeah, aikiken. Aikiken almost always looks bad if you've done any training in a real sword art.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Parker View Post
    If anything, it bears a tiny superficial similarity to some Yagyu Shinkage ideas (outflanking and attacking the forearms/wrists, deflective actions with the sword to enter etc), but it's, at the very very best, an incredibly pale imitation.
    Ugh. As festooned with qualifications as this statement is, it still kind of makes me wince.

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    Itto Tenshin Katori Shinto-ryu was what Fred Lovret use to call his style of JSA. He wrote a book a long time ago called Kenjutsu Shoden. This is the only photo source of the style that I know of.

    Jose Garrido
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    Random thread contribution: I visited the Toman dojo here in MD a couple of years ago to see Ellis. I believe this dojo was affiliated with Lovret's systems.

    I recall that they used extra-long bokken, and they had one or two of these attractive little wooden doohickies on the wall that would hold a piece of newspaper. They would do some basic cutting practice by cutting through the paper - splitting the paper without knocking it out of the holder was considered good.

    Didn't see any of their system, but extra-long bokken and cutting pieces of paper.

    Really amazing dojo, haven't seen anything like it ever. Owner, who was presumably a student of Lovret's or one of Lovret's guys, was heir to a big land development company. Died in a helicopter crash a couple of years ago, very sad. Joshua Freeman, I think his name was?

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