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Thread: Further controversy, doubts, and the current situation (mostly in italy)

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    Default Further controversy, doubts, and the current situation (mostly in italy)

    Hi, I'm a new poster from italy, I just recently started practicing daito-ryu aikijujutsu and as you can imagine since I'm posting here, I'm a strongly curious person and I kinda love doing things "the right way"(more on this later).

    I followed and read back most of the posts here around, lurked around in both english speaking sites/italian ones, to find out how the situation has unfolded in the last 5-8 years and I've seen much controversy, rage, embarassing situations and generally a troubling schism in the DRAJJ teaching and I'm now wodering a lot of things and trying to understand and "enter" in this harsh situation.

    I'll be posting a super-quick background before going into fulltopic so you understand why of this post:

    I live in italy in a small-ish city, so I don't have access to most of the "real" world, especially when speaking about martial arts, I considered many times moving in bigger places and even considered going to japan(not related to martial arts but in the future it might be) but never managed to do so, in the end I decided to try DRAJJ and found it fascinating enough to start wondering WHAT I'm doing, WHERE I'm doing it, and with WHOM I'm doing it.

    I started documenting myself, reading, checking videos, any reliable source and I found nice and not-so-nice things and I'm now wondering what is the real current situation, let me explain:

    1)I read about the discendancy issue of DRAJJ and found out the evidence of the menkyo kaiden of Kondo Katsuyuki Sensei, I also learned all the history about the accidents and splits that happened
    2)I then manage to check the history in italy and noticed a sad theatre of "I'm the best" "no I'm the real one" "no I'm the good guy here the others are a scam" and what not, to the point I grow myself an opinion about this
    3)I read about Certa Sensei, and about Sano Sensei shiseikan and how the abashiri group is strong in Italy and how Kondo sensei is considered to be a "good politician" and by how some said "a scammer that didn't train enough"

    Now considered this I'm puzzled: what a newcomer should think about this?

    For me my issue is this: I'm not sure this will be my Way of life, since I just started, but I don't want to start with the wrong foot, so I'm worried it all might end in being just "time wasted".I don't consider my dojo a bad one, totally the other way around, I really like the atmosphere, I really like the place and I like what they teach and how, I have some good friends there(that probably will read this message and will be horribly offended, I apologize but I MUST understand or I will never be at peace when training)and I surely plan to keep on training....on the other hand though...

    I'm worried because I keep hearing stories, and facts, and proofs, and then someone changed his mind, so I want to understand what is the real situation from people NOT involved in this situation:

    I read Mr. Merello letters and apologizes and seen the video proofs so I'm convinced Kondo Sensei is the only mainline and I believe that his teaching is the right one.I personally didn't try it but plan on doing it in the future when I will be ready if he will be then like to accept a foreigner student, on the other hand I see all my Senseis studying under abashiri shiseinkan direction and I appreciate their methods I have faith they are doing everything 100% right but I wonder, in the end is that going to be THE right training? Some of them believe kondo is not the true mainline so I'm worried there is plenty of difference and I will not be able to learn the "right" way of DRAJJ, and that makes me feel uneasy.

    I tried contacting directly people involved in the matter to try and mediate/understand why there is this strong split but both parties have been barely speaking up(you know I'm a newcomer so no one really opens up) so I now ask to the community of e-budo some help understanding this whole matter.

    to summarize my concerns I'd say

    1)What is the current situation of the japanese abshiri branch? Are they active? Are they recognizeing Kondo Sensei Menkyo kaiden? Are they affiliated or still divided?Who is the headmaster? And is that recognized by anyone or what?

    2)Is it going to be valuable time? I don't plan on stopping untill I can try other options to decide by myself, but still I'm worried, anyone an say anything on this matter?

    3)should i try keep having an open discussion with my senseis to try and understand eachothers? I kinda have that feeling that in the end we might get isolated not being under the mainline...you know I might just be paranoid

    4)should i just try taking the chance of going and seeing by myself the difference between the teachings?

    I apologize if anyone feels offende by my post, at first I thought I'd try to just keep this matter to myself but the more time passes the more doubts and questions are born into my mind and I couldn't just hold anymore...

    Thanks in advance!

    edit: just had an afterthought...if you wonder why I'm bringing this out in the public on e-budo and not just go talk here at the dojo is for 2 reasons, first to get an outsider impression since I noticed in italy most of the dojos don't recognize Kondo sensei, and the ones that do are outside my range, also I noticed it's kind of an europe-issue(well issue for me, not for them!), secondly because I don't want to be "that guy that is new here that is already causing troubles" because I feel it would be disrespectful to just go and create problems to the senseis.So I thought Id first ask and complete my understanding and then directly bring the issue face-to-face to learn more from their perspective.

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    4)should i just try taking the chance of going and seeing by myself the difference between the teachings?

    YES
    Jose' delCristo Garrido
    Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu Mainline Tradition
    NYC Metro Area Branch Dojo
    facebook.com/daitoryudojonj

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    Hi Uliano,

    You will find very polarized views here on E-budo. You have people like Jose' and me, both active under Kondo sensei and you will have people active under Mr. Certa. You might want to ask someone like our mod. Mr. Scott. He does not study Daito-ryu in either group so he might have a more honest opinion.

    The evidence against Kondo sensei's menkyo kaiden is very thin and rather poor. Besides the document itself there is video from when Takeda sensei was alive where they recognize Kondo sensei's rank in front of Takeda sensei and members of the Daitokai. I'm sure you've seen it. So to me it becomes a matter of character. Do you want to train with someone who has told such lies in the past to so many people? No thank you. I might not be the most friendly guy around but I'm not going to lie like that. As for his hours in, I don't think that is an issue either. His training history is well documented. His experience in Daito-ryu is both broad and deep.

    Is it the right way to do things? That is more subjective. There are many branches of Daito-ryu besides those that come from Takeda Tokimune sensei and they all have their flavor when doing things. Some groups I feel are weak, some are strong and some I can't say because I've never trained with them. What I use to judge a group (which might not apply to you since you are new) is if someone who has the same rank or same amount of time in as me can move me as well as my peers can. I've trained with some guys that can and I think to myself, "these guys are okay in my book." There are other guys that can't really move me very well at all and they disappoint me. I've been to seminars with teachers who couldn't throw me and I just walked past them instead of falling because what they offered wasn't real or at least not real enough for me. Could they punch me in the mouth? Sure, so can any street thug. I want to see if they can move me with their Daito-ryu. Some can and some can't.

    As for your questions:
    1. I'm not sure about Abashiri. Last I heard Mr. Kato was in very poor health. Mr. Arisawa passed away. Mr. Sano resigned years ago and apologized to Kondo sensei. There really isn't a headmaster to the art and never really was besides Takeda Sokaku sensei. His son Tokimune sensei tried to claim that title but it never really worked out because all of the other groups like Kodokai, Sagawa dojo, Yamamoto-den, Takumakai, etc. basically still did their own thing. Once you get your own freedom it is very hard to go back under someone's thumb. When that someone, in this case, was decades your junior in age (all skill level left out of it) it makes it even harder.

    2. Valuable how? What do you want out of it? Do you want to train with a line that is lead by a menkyo kaiden? or one that is not? If that matters to you then you need to make up your mind. If that doesn't then that's okay, too. If you think about it the Kodokai is about the only group left that still has someone who knew Takeda Sokaku sensei personally. I think Inoue sensei met him as a young child. Maybe that is important to you? I don't know. I've met people from backyard karate clubs that can fight better than any menkyo kaiden ranked people or me or anyone I know. If just kicking butt is most important maybe that is what you need to consider?

    3. I think you already know their position so I wouldn't imagine bringing the topic up will help you much. Just like many of the posts here between Mr. Certa's students and me, facts don't seem to really matter.

    4. I'll 2nd Jose' and say go to Japan and meet some people. Train with Kondo sensei (I'm sure an Italian student can help you meet him) and find out for yourself. Maybe even go to Abashiri and see how that goes. I'm sure your teachers can arrange for it. I think anyone studying a Japanese budo should go to Japan a few times in their life anyway.

    Good luck!
    Christopher Covington

    Daito-ryu aikijujutsu
    Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage-ryu heiho

    All views expressed here are my own and don't necessarily represent the views of the arts I practice, the teachers and people I train with or any dojo I train in.

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    Alessandro,

    I do not see your point here, and I do not really understand who you exactly are because you are mixing both names and places. It seems that you do not have a clear picture of the situation.

    I live in italy in a small-ish city
    Where exactly? This would no doubt give me an immediate answer about who you are. Anyway, I have the feeling that you are a member of the Shiseikan.


    3)I read about Certa Sensei, and about Sano Sensei shiseikan and how the abashiri group is strong in Italy and how Kondo sensei is considered to be a "good politician" and by how some said "a scammer that didn't train enough"

    This is not accurate, there are many Daitô-Ryű organizations in Italy. Daitokai, Shiseikan, Hakuhokai, Seifukai, and a couple of Dôjô following instructions from Mr Kondo one in Milano and another one in Reggio Emilia or Modena, not so sure. That make 5 different organizations.

    For me my issue is this: I'm not sure this will be my Way of life, since I just started
    Then may be you should first find an answer for yourself before coming to this board.


    I read Mr. Merello letters and apologizes and seen the video proofs so I'm convinced Kondo Sensei is the only mainline and I believe that his teaching is the right one
    Since you "know", why ask? Go for it.


    3)should i try keep having an open discussion with my senseis to try and understand eachothers? I kinda have that feeling that in the end we might get isolated not being under the mainline...you know I might just be paranoid

    Since you are mentioning several Senseis, I assume that you are from L'Aquila. You should have talked to them before posting here, they are very openminded and everybody is free to make his/her own choice.


    edit: just had an afterthought...if you wonder why I'm bringing this out in the public on e-budo and not just go talk here at the dojo is for 2 reasons, first to get an outsider impression since I noticed in italy most of the dojos don't recognize Kondo sensei, and the ones that do are outside my range, also I noticed it's kind of an europe-issue(well issue for me, not for them!), secondly because I don't want to be "that guy that is new here that is already causing troubles" because I feel it would be disrespectful to just go and create problems to the senseis.So I thought Id first ask and complete my understanding and then directly bring the issue face-to-face to learn more from their perspective.
    Once again, you are missing the point. First of all, Mr Kondo is recognized by every Dôjô in Italy as a very valuable teacher of Daitô-Ryű but not as THE teacher. I do not know if you see the difference here. It is obvious that Mr Kondo, a former student of Tokimune Takeda has a very valuable experience and that he is very skilled. Some have choosen to train with different organizations, as long as everybody is satisfied, I don not see any problem here.

    You are not really causing troubles eventhough you should have talked to your fellow Daitô-Ryű practionners first. You must understand that the fights of the past are now over and that we do not really care about the succession controversy. There are so many details that you are unaware of. If you are a new student, then you have never met personnaly some individuals involved and you do not really know what happened inside the Daitokai. Basically, the controversy was brought on purpose by two fellow countrymen of yours. Both of them have stopped Daitô-Ryű and are not involved anymore with us, which is actually, the best move they could do. Talk to your senseis, they will tell you exactly the same thing. Quite frankly, they do not care about the controversy, they only want to train and improve their skills. It looks like you did not participate to the September seminar in San Benedetto, I suggest that you participate next time, most of your "technical questions" will find an answer.



    I might not be the most friendly guy around but I'm not going to lie like that.
    That's right, you are not the most friendly guy around to say the least
    You did also write a couple of inacurate statements:

    Chris Covington wrote:


    Quote:
    Most of the members from this organization have left to train under Kondo sensei
    Which is, as we both know, totally wrong + a couple of other things.

    But who cares? as you said:

    I've met people from backyard karate clubs that can fight better than any menkyo kaiden ranked people or me or anyone I know. If just kicking butt is most important maybe that is what you need to consider?
    May be, we all should do?

    Good training and Alessandro talk to your senseis.
    Deception is one of Kenpo´s best technique.

    Väck ej björnen som sover


    Raphael Deutsch

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    Hello all,

    I don't see any problem with someone posting a well intended post such as this. It is a valid question. However, there are two issues to consider. One involves the technical issues of levels of initiation, license/rights to teach the art (succession of teachings). The technical issues have been covered extensively on this and other forums, and I don't think there is any doubt at this point as to the conclusions. IMO, there is no longer an "if, could be" situation about these issues. There is enough source evidence and testimonies from those involved that, IMO, there is no longer any room for doubt.

    As far as who is better skilled, since such an evaluation is subjective, I believe it is inappropriate to comment on it publicly. Nothing good ever comes from it, and feelings inevitably get hurt. There are extensive videos and books now that demonstrate the level of skill and understanding of the people being discussed here. I urge readers to review them and form your own opinion. Anyone interested in my opinion is welcome to PM me. I'm happy to express my opinion privately if anyone is curious (just give me a little time to write back).

    When it comes down to it though, the best solution is to meet those involved directly and see what you think of their skill level, understanding of the art, and character. Also, be realistic about what you are looking to get out of the training. Is it more important to train under someone you get along with? If you're goal is to become skilled at the art, or to enjoy training with others? There are many reasons for training, and they are all valid. You need to understand what you are looking for and prioritize them. In other words, the likelihood of finding one teacher/dojo that is perfect in all regards is not very realistic.

    Personally, FWIW, over the years I've developed certain criteria that I'm looking for in an art and/or teacher. I am primarily interested in mastering the arts I study, and becoming physically skilled at them. Everything else is secondary. That means teachers who have full, legitimate initiation in their art, and the ability / willingness to pass them on (not necessarily super-skilled themselves, as long as they can pass the teachings on correctly). I am against large organizations, and try to establish as direct of a teacher-student relationship as high up as possible in order to create the best opportunity for learning. I'm not interested in training in arts that are not willing to award levels of authority in their art (densho), because those that are not willing to give up any level of control (even though it was given to them) are also not willing to teach everything to those who are not family. I've chosen to specialize in classical Japanese arts, and train in ones that are very complimentary, so that I can develop one operating system and set of tactics/strategy. That way I can be assured of reacting clearly and efficiently (you do as you train) when needed. Lastly, I test myself through real-world conflicts (not competitions, sports, or sparring) that present themselves through my chosen profession. So far, the above learning strategy has been serving me VERY well, as evidenced by my successes on the street.

    I agree with the overview Mr. Covington posted above, and also encourage others to look at the facts, meet the people, and form their own opinions based on what they are looking for personally.

    Regards,
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    To all,

    Mr. Scott does seem to know quite a bit about classical Japanese arts, and Mr. Covington may know a lot about Mr. Kondo’s organization. However, their statements about these issues are nothing more than their own opinions.

    As far as Mr. Kondo is concerned, no one disputes that Takeda Tokimune Soke awarded him a Godan in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu—the highest dan ranking. Kato Shigemitsu sensei also was awarded a Godan by the Soke. That means both demonstrated that they were highly knowledgeable and very skilled practitioners. It also means both have legitimate lineage within the art. (While modern rankings may have some questionable aspects, I doubt anyone could reasonably say that the Soke did not demand the highest levels from these men when their ranks were earned.)

    I understand that Kato sensei, who is older, no longer regularly teaches. Antonino Certa sensei, a Shihan and Yondan (again, out of a five dan system), continues to teach the syllabus as taught in Abashiri. Although Messrs. Scott and Covington apparently have never trained with Certa sensei, I have. He is a great teacher and a great person. He is deeply passionate about teaching the art, and what it means to be a martial artist, as it was taught to him.

    Although a highly ranked student of other arts, Mr. Scott does not appear to be yudansha in Daito Ryu Aikibudo. While Mr. Covington is a nidan (a very high honor from Mr. Kondo), he is not a Shihan. While there is nothing wrong with either one expressing their opinions, to place those opinions in context, neither one has first hand knowledge of the reasons or the circumstances behind the succession dispute from 20 years ago (nor do I). Since I have been a member, no one in Certa sensei’s organization has mentioned Mr. Kondo’s menkyo kaiden or the dispute (if any lingers) concerning it.

    Mr. Kondo’s group and Certa sensei’s organization are not affiliated. However, Certa sensei and my teacher have expressed to me that Mr. Kondo is highly skilled. As far as any reconciliation among the groups is concerned, who knows what the future holds?

    By the way Mr. Scott, I understand that your Aikido teacher, Obata Toshishiro sensei, was an uchi-deshi of Gozo Shioda sensei—you may be interested to know that there is a photo of Certa sensei as his uke in Shioda sensei’s book.

    Best regards,

    Michael Zartman

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    Hello Mr. Zartman,

    All of us are posting are opinions for the most part, including you. However, there are many facts that can be proven in regards to the succession issue, and IMO, any reasonable person would reach the same conclusion at this point after reviewing the facts. Those that disagree are welcome to do so - none of us are on a crusade to convert others. I am, however, interested in discouraging misinformation from becoming fact after being repeated unchallenged enough times.

    A couple more things to consider. Dan ranks are a relatively new system, and represent individual progression. Certifications and licenses are different, and represent permission to represent oneself as having some level of authority in an art, and/or, gives permission to teach. When it comes to teaching licenses, most are conditional (limits to who you can teach, or for how long). Menkyo Kaiden generally means full initiation and a graduation from the art. Menkyo Kaiden are qualified to head up their own branch of the art, independent of other branches or "mainlines". Branches founded by DR Menkyo Kaiden include the Takumakai, Kodokai, and Shinbukan. Other branches recognized as legitimate include Ueshiba Sensei's Aikido and the Sagawa Dojo, since both these exponents received the highest level of initiation at the time prior to opening their own branch. That makes five branches or versions of Daito-ryu that one can chose for legitimate instruction, all of which are available now internationally. Depending on what you are looking for, you may have to make certain personal sacrifices to obtain it. If you are not that serious about training, then train with whoever is local and don't worry about the rest.

    Many of you are speaking from an emotional perspective about the Daitokan members and Mr. Certa. Keep in mind that we are not slandering their character or skill level. We are simply talking about levels of initiation and rights to use the Daito-ryu name for their instruction. Both Okabayashi Sensei (Hakuho-ryu) and Okuyama Sensei (Hakko-ryu) specifically changed the art name of their own teachings because they did not have full transmission of the art and did not want to disrespect those that did by using the same name. Nothing stops anyone from doing the same.

    Those that enjoy training with Mr. Certa and wish to support him are encouraged to do so. But the facts of the succession of the art will not change, and "legitimate lineage" is different than "legitimate instruction". All of us acknowledge that someone with incomplete initiation has the ability to teach interesting things from the art, and/or be skilled at fighting in general. Offering something of value is not what we are debating.

    I wasn't "there" when all the drama went down, but whatever ranks I may or may not have does not negate my direct involvement with both groups (and others) more than 10 years ago, and the documentation that I received and translated personally (all of which I found to be exactly what Kondo Sensei and Stan Pranin said they were).

    I propose that if anyone has any specific questions about any of this that they haven't already found discussed to death elsewhere in this sub-forum, ask it and we'll discuss it. Just don't waste our time and effort if you are so emotionally caught up in your point of view that you are not willing to listen to logic. None of us have the time or energy to play the word games and mis-phrasing of positions spin.

    And BTW, FWIW, I'm no longer affiliated or training with Obata Sensei as of a few years ago.

    Regards,
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 17th November 2011 at 20:20.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Also, I've posted this before, but there are varying opinions about how quickly and easily ranks were awarded under Tokimune Sensei. I think it is safe to say that he was inconsistent in his criteria for awarding them. For example, Alain Floquet from France trained at the Daitokan for (10) days, and was awarded a 3rd degree black belt (sandan) by Tokimune Sensei. He never came back again after that, and now operates an aikibudo federation in France independently (or possibly under Takeda Munemitsu).

    As far as Mr. Certa's ranks, he published photos of them in his book. They were also awarded VERY quickly by any standard. Mr. Certa states he began training at the Daitokan in June of 1991, and received the following ranks from Tokimune Sensei:

    3rd Kyu - July 5th, 1991 ("brown belt" in less than one month of training)
    2nd Kyu - August 12th, 1991
    1st Kyu - August 23rd, 1991

    On August 1st, 1999 (8 years after starting training at the Daitokan), Mr. Certa was awarded a Shihan license by Mr. Sano Matsuo, who issued it independent of the newly formed Seishinkai as the "Soshi" (general instructor) of the "Nihon Daito-ryu Aikibudo Honbu". The secretary from the Nihon Daito-ryu Aikibudo Daitokai group specifically stated that "there is no real Shihan ranking in our school", and that Mr. Certa's Shihan license is considered by the other members void and to have no value (I assume outside of Mr. Sano himself).

    According to the Daitokan folks, Kyoju Dairi is the highest teaching license they issued, represented 2/3rds of the curriculum, and took 20 years or more to achieve. The Daitokai members did not even receive this license. Tokimune Sensei was known for saying, "Out of 1,000 students, only teach one or two the true techniques". The only two to receive the Kyoju Dairi license from Tokimune Sensei in his 46 years of instruction was Mr. Kondo Katsuyuki and Mr. Suzuki Shimpachi (now deceased).

    The Shibucho license that Mr. Sano Matuso and Mr. Kato Shigemitsu were issued is a partial license, and generally represents initiation in the Hiden Mokuroku and the Aikinojutsu level. Thus, their level of license to teach had not even approached the 2/3rds mark necessary to obtain a full teaching license. The Kyoju Dairi does not even represent the whole curriculum, so what percent of the art did they really learn? Both the Hiden Mokuroku and Aikinojutsu levels combined equated to roughly 200 techniques out of a total of 2,884 techniques!

    The above are facts, many of which came from an authorized representative of the Daitokai who would ask Mr. Kato and others our questions, then post their answers publicly.

    Regards,
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 2nd January 2012 at 21:22.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    I see nothing useful about this forum. I now understand why so few people ever post here. Goodbye.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelZ View Post
    I see nothing useful about this forum. I now understand why so few people ever post here. Goodbye.
    ROFLMAO! "I don't want to play with your guys, so I'm taking my ball and going home!"
    Christopher Covington

    Daito-ryu aikijujutsu
    Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage-ryu heiho

    All views expressed here are my own and don't necessarily represent the views of the arts I practice, the teachers and people I train with or any dojo I train in.

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    How were my posts possibly considered offensive?!? I went out of my way to qualify what we were talking about (and not talking about), and warned those that may be too emotionally charged on the subject to simply not become involved. IMO, it's unhealthy to allow martial arts to become a "faith based" pursuit, but to each his own.

    My posts contain facts, most of which came from the Daitokai folks. The facts may not be what you want to hear, but I can't help that. If anyone has specific questions or issues with something that is posted, bring it up - or move on. But don't bag on us for answering your questions.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Beer Nothing was

    Nathan,

    I have always found your post to be well written and informative to say the least. I do not think anything you have said was offensive. It seems Micheal just does not like your response. Keep up the good work.
    James L. Fitzgerald
    Senso Ryu (99/03)
    Hakuho ryu Indy study group
    http://thejumonkan.webs.com

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    Nathan,
    I have found your posts to be both accurate and informative. If it wasn't for information that I have received from both yourself and Chris, I would have taken the wrong road. I may currently not have a road, but, consider this better than taking the wrong one. So thanks again to you both.
    Sean Halpin.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    May 2000
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    O.K., thanks for the reality check!
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
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    Hello everyone,

    Sorry if I disappeared for a long time, I haven't forgotten the discussion and I kept checking in and thinking before speaking more on this matter, because I acted on impulse at the beginning, but I really wanted to have more time to think about it...I'll generally answer to the questions and give my new ideas so we might be able to carry on (though somehow I believe we got to the point already )

    I got a lot more involved in some good discussions here and I learned much more, technically and philosophically speaking if you let me use these terms:

    1)I'm sorry I didn't answer right where I lived but I didn't think anyone here really knew! I am indeed from L'Aquila, and I'm training of course with the group here that is now affiliated with the shiseikan.As I understood the situations is pretty much as described(Sano Sensei seems to have officially retired but he's still present and now I think the "leading" senseis are Norio and Sasaki, but don't quote me on this, and I hope no one will get offedned if I make mistakes!)

    2)I managed to arrange if all goes right either a 3months stay in japan or 1 year for the next year, I'm not even remotely sure that I will go next year but if it's not 2012 it will be soon enough.As said I plan to go training both under Kondo Katsuyuki Sensei and in Kitami under the Shiseikan, hoping again, no one gets offended.I've been pretty much warned I might sound a bit offensive since it might sound bad to train under both, but I will adamantly keep my idea that without trying I won't ever understand what's different.The only blocking issue is the language barrier, I have studied some basics japanese but I can barely work some words and I won't probably be able to understand much unless I study harder the language or have some fellow translating for me there.

    (on this matter I want to add I'm curating a more accurate italian translation of the techniques I have access to, right now being ikkajo.I don't want again to sound offensive, I'm just straight to the point but we found together with some jp-speaking people some glaring errors in our translation....if anyone can help I gladly could use the kanji of the techniques used for the uke part...I have access to all the kanji in ikkajo for like ippondori but I don't know the kanji for ryotodedori or shomenuchi or whatever...before I go make a fool of myself and ask directly to the shiseikan I'd love any help )

    3)As far as I understand, quoting mr Scott:

    "The Shibucho license that Mr. Sano Matuso and Mr. Kato Shigemitsu were issued is a partial license, and generally represents initiation in the Hiden Mokuroku and the Aikinojutsu level. Thus, their level of license to teach had not even approached the 2/3rds mark necessary to obtain a full teaching license. The Kyoju Dairi does not even represent the whole curriculum, so what percent of the art did they really learn? Both the Hiden Mokuroku and Aikinojutsu levels combined equated to roughly 200 techniques out of a total of 2,884 techniques!"


    Actually the shiseikan has an incomplete curriculum? I'm not concerned to be honest, I have a lifetime-long way to even get near to the rest of the techniques but still it's good to understand the whole situation.



    I can say I like the discussion very much it brought much insight, I hope it doesn't turn into a flame war because I believe that we have a rational mind for a reason: we can analyze and see with our own mind how it's the reality without getting emotional and going into useless fit of rage.I perosnally have huge respect of all the Sensei in all the branches of the Daito-ryu but I can still understand that there are differences, and those are not quality related, but just differences.

    I had a nice talk with my sensei the other day where I actually asked in a blunt way on how they decided to go with a certain sensei instead of another one.I really loved the answer: " we didn't look for the technique but for the person" which for me is the best answer I could get to be honest.They had found in perfect touch with the shiseikan and they pursued that way.I accept and respect that, that's why I want to meet both Sano Sensei and Kondo sensei!

    Speaking on the technique side I really think I will only come to udnerstand by practicing so I guess there isn't much to say untill I go there...I would like to keep the discussion going though if there's more to say! I would really love to hear more about your experiences if anyone trained under different branches of the daito ryu.

    I would like in the end to thank everyone for their help, I will keep browsing and probably writing but as you can see, I'm pretty busy most of the time so it might take some weeks to answer back!

    have a happy new year and hopefully good training

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