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Thread: "Least Amount of Force"

  1. #16
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    Raff - we (U.S.) call it "out in the field." When we are talking "in the outfield" we mean baseball!!!
    Thank you for the info. At school, our english teachers taught us in the outfield, so he was wrong, now I can make fun of himnext time I see him, he is a very nice person and would be more than happy to correct his mistakes.

    As for my colleague, I must say that he is a little short tempered and that following the guy throughout the city made him mad. After the collision, he went wild, and the guy's face was a big mess. Even worse, a picture of the villain was taken after the struggle.

    This is why I'm saying, we have a hard job, you need to keep your calm and comply with the regulations. Seasoned villains know that and take advantage of that fact.

    On the other hand, I must admit that I really enjoy what I'm doing and would not do anything else.

    Thanks for sharing the videos, there are always good things to learn, it can be useful when we are out in the field!!!!
    Deception is one of Kenpo´s best technique.

    Väck ej björnen som sover


    Raphael Deutsch

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raff View Post

    As for my colleague, I must say that he is a little short tempered and that following the guy throughout the city made him mad. After the collision, he went wild, and the guy's face was a big mess. Even worse, a picture of the villain was taken after the struggle.
    yeah, that's not good..... You do see it happen: mainly with excitement after a chase or a search or on a K-9 bite. Everybody starts getting amped up and screaming and sometimes you have to control THEM more than the suspect!!

    Another element I consider part of zanshin, not to belabor that point.

    Fascinating experience/convergence of budo and international police work here!
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

  3. #18
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    One of the (many) reasons many US departments strongly discourage high speed pursuit is that the officers, at the end of the drive, have so much adrenaline in their systems that they start exercising less-than-optimal judgment. In other words, the perp stops, raises his hands, and the cop starts punching him in the nose and screaming workplace inappropriate language. Meanwhile, the television helicopters are filming the whole thing in real time, from multiple angles, and all the civilians are snapping away with their cell phones. The officer gets to keep his job -- the chief understands, but still puts a formal reprimand in the officer's permanent file, if only to placate the citizens' advisory group. Meanwhile, the prosecutor's case is compromised, so he settles without much fight.

    The other reason is of course accidents. The police car clips somebody, the department pays for other car's damage. The police car gets in an actual accident, the officer files a workers' comp claim and the department pays for a new police car. Increased insurance costs come straight out of the department operating budget. Yes, they factor in some accidents and issues, but a Blues Brothers gig will entirely blow the budget. Thus, from management's standpoint, it is almost always better to hang back and let Motorola do the work.
    Last edited by Joseph Svinth; 10th January 2012 at 03:20.

  4. #19
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    Hey Joe! Long time!

    For pursuits I think its agency by agency. These certainly are factors. But what you are describing was NEVER okay and not I think a primary reason. Losing cases in civil court that basically put the onus on the LE agency rather than the fleeing criminal IS.

    Once again this is a great example of policy vs. law: the Supreme Court's decision in Scott v Harris is case law supporting the use of deadly force to intervene in a pursuit.

    Pursuits are not just strongly discouraged, they are forbidden in many agencies in most cases unless you have for example DUI, active DV, or a violent felony with an articulated threat to officers and the public. Even if you have the latter, you can decide not to pursue and you won't be disciplined. Most cops will always choose the latter because they don't want to be disciplined.

    Some have to be reminded by a supervisor at times because of that Red Mist Rising that you are talking about in your post.

    The alternative is to end these things by gunfire, since the last is a given in any high speed pursuit no matter what the original reason for stop is, as supported by Scott v. Harris.

    I don't know many Chief's with the fortitude to stand by that, because what will be said in the media is that cops shot little Johnny for driving without a license plate light and the driving 90 mph on the sidewalk part will be left out.....

    In the end reasonableness is the deciding factor. Its hard to make reasonable decisions under the Red Mist, or Condition Black.

    One thing I do, and have always taught student officers, is to breathe before getting on the radio and communicating information in such a situation. This calms you down, makes you more present (zanshin again),and allows more cognitive processing.

    It also affects other officers: I have seen it time and again where people are amped up on the radio on a hot call, looking for a felon, or having someone run from them, serving to amp most other people up as they rush to get to the scene. Its partly to help the officer there and its partly because its just so EXCITING. Frankly sometimes the people least equipped skillfully and tactically for such calls are the ones that get most excited about going to them!

    When a calm voice breaks the tension on the radio you can almost feel other people relax or calm down. I call it "Calm is Contagious."
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

  5. #20
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    Kit --

    Listen to old astronaut footage. "Ah Houston, we have a problem." Uh, yeah, that's an understatement.

    But it does have a calming influence on everybody around you.

  6. #21
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    Default Breathing

    An article some guy wrote on breathing, law enforcement and performance. Appeared in the Calibre Press Newsline in 1999.
    http://www.threatsolutions.com/combatbreathing.html

    It was also up on Grossmans site for a number of years.

    Training with John was fantastic as usual. Got to reconnect with a number of students from over the years who are now LE trainers.
    Topics included Below 100 initiative, Graham v Connor, the use of Force Continuums (per the link previuosly mentioned), how to develop training scenarios. Over 70 instructors there. Training ws put on by the Rural Policing Instituite through FLETC. The training is FREE. If you want to host a class just contact them, provide a location and everything else it taken care of by them. Tons of different classes. Check out the RPI website.

    Duane
    Last edited by Duanew; 13th January 2012 at 13:09.
    Duane Wolfe

  7. #22
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    Force Science, and I am told even Siddle, are questioning his earlier results on the heart rate thing; the nature of the stimulus/arousal and how one processes it seems is more important than the heart rate itself.

    But you can never go wrong with tactical breathing!

    You hit on another interesting psychological element that I believe calls for more:

    "If I have to shoot, I hope I hit him..."

    That sounds like secondary arousal to me. We have to figure out how to teach cops not to think that way, but rather:

    "I will shoot this guy when necessary, and I will keep hitting him until he goes down or gives up."

    A good study: further demonstrating how qualifying at the range has virtually nothing to do with a shooting, let alone a gunfight, other than the fact that you have a gun in your hand!
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

  8. #23
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    Yup, the science is pointing toward the amount of time and variability between the beats.
    Duane Wolfe

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