Likes Likes:  0
Page 10 of 13 FirstFirst ... 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 LastLast
Results 136 to 150 of 194

Thread: Adapting Koryu

  1. #136
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Posts
    511
    Likes (received)
    3

    Default

    You are not snarky one bit.
    Flowers from my hair are spiralling downwards, this discussion is not.
    For some strange reason I feel we are more in agreement than it would seem to be so from our discussions.

    Shooting might be a martial art but the lessons I am referring to seem hardly martial art to me. Any imbecile could learn that in a couple of hours
    and shoot up half a street.

    "it has to be felt"- why hate to say it/? it is the truth. Fighting is like making love, you can read about it, talk about it, discuss it, you can even watch it. But all these things won't make you a good lover. Yep the only way to....
    blah,blah, blah ...Marishiten...etc. Oh and eh - you need the right equipment

    This statement above still means that most of us - who don't fight for real - will miss out on some of the most important points in a transmission no matter how hard/serious/realistic/have-to-be-felt-like training we do.

    We are not on different wavelengths I think. The professional soldier who has trained all of his life and never went to war does not equal the one who did train all of his life and did go to war. I even feel he does not equal the conscript soldier who got his basic training and nothing more but was sent out to fight for his life.

    Happy landings,

    Johan Smits

  2. #137
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    68
    Likes (received)
    5

    Default

    I am wondering where something like Hakko-Ryu / Hakko Denshin Ryu falls into this discussion.

    After training at a Hakko Denshin Ryu dojo for a bit - populated pretty extensively with cops who bemoaned the rise of the tazer, but another topic - it seemed far more martial than most aikido. After some limited experience in koryu, Hakko Ryu just seemed to be stuck in third gear, or so. A bit more oomph than a lot of other places, but nothing of the long legs of koryu.

    Given that the dojo that I attended was so rife with police, and that the founding principles are amenable to police work (No Challenge, No Resistance, No Injury!) I wonder that perhaps Ryuho Okuyama wondered at similar questions as have been asked here and came up with an answer and codified it.

  3. #138
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Washington State, USA
    Posts
    3,324
    Likes (received)
    48

    Default

    What are the rules of engagement? Defining those might clarify this discussion.

  4. #139
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    1,174
    Likes (received)
    343

    Default

    From controlling to killing bad guys.

  5. #140
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Posts
    511
    Likes (received)
    3

    Default

    Joe,
    Clarifying discussions is sometimes good, not always. When you look for answers you should clarify - but since there are no answers on a board it is not a bad thing to let it run free and see what comes up. Maybe a mushroom maybe a diamant. And it is fun - no?
    It does takes it's toll from the let's call it the patience from those participating
    but that's cool, we're all trained.

    ' From controlling to killing bad guys ' sounds like the stuff movies are made from

    I have no personal experience with Hakko-ryu or Hakko Denshin-ryu but it might be an example of an art which is useful to both groups (pro's and civ's).
    More realistic than a lot of aikido perhaps and less gory than the ' sneakup from behind and slashtheirthroat' styles. Which seem to be favored by some

    Happy landings,

    Johan Smits

  6. #141
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    1,174
    Likes (received)
    343

    Default

    No, not the movies, though perhaps my answer appeared flippant.

    Anyone, in fact, using force from a self defense perspective is best served by having countermeasures that begin with (assuming physical force is needed) control measures - i.e. those that provide ability to evade assault and to detain or capture individuals at the fairly low end of the spectrim. Most uses of force will in fact be here. Applicable measures may be found in the section of koryu curriculae that involve torite type measures. Even the oldest jujutsu schools contain these things, some with surprising similarity to stuff used today.

    Increasingly our soldiers are finding the need to use these kinds of tactics as well.

    On the other end of the spectrum is the means to stop a threat from actions that can cause serious bodily injury or death. This is the level that is often grossly misunderstood by people within the martial arts, who either "role play" the use of "deadly techniques" with impunity and little serious consideration of what it actually means to use that kind of force, or dismiss its usefulness altogether.

    Often there is an inaccurate assumption that police officers are not allowed to intentionally kill suspects. They are under circumstances in which such action is reasonable - and are not in fact judged by their underlying intent when such force is reasonable.

    A cop can beat you to death with a brick, and if it is reasonable, it is good to go.

    The applications here from koryu are obvious and dealt with extensively up thread.

  7. #142
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    1,174
    Likes (received)
    343

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by johan smits View Post
    Joe,
    Clarifying discussions is sometimes good, not always. When you look for answers you should clarify - but since there are no answers on a board it is not a bad thing to let it run free and see what comes up. Maybe a mushroom maybe a diamant. And it is fun - no?
    It does takes it's toll from the let's call it the patience from those participating
    but that's cool, we're all trained.
    The answers have been explained, time and again. Chris and Nathan have also provided examples...And done so patiently....

  8. #143
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Posts
    511
    Likes (received)
    3

    Default

    " Anyone, in fact, using force from a self defense perspective is best served by having countermeasures that begin with (assuming physical force is needed) control measures - i.e. those that provide ability to evade assault and to detain or capture individuals at the fairly low end of the spectrim. Most uses of force will in fact be here. Applicable measures may be found in the section of koryu curriculae that involve torite type measures. Even the oldest jujutsu schools contain these things, some with surprising similarity to stuff used today.

    Increasingly our soldiers are finding the need to use these kinds of tactics as well. "

    Kit, I feel that essentially nothing has changed. Gear has I guess but in essence it seems to me to be still the same?

    " The answers have been explained, time and again. Chris and Nathan have also provided examples...And done so patiently.... "

    And that is well appreciated.
    But maybe I am looking for mushrooms...

    Happy landings,

    Johan Smits

  9. #144
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Blue Ridge, Texas
    Posts
    2,000
    Likes (received)
    125

    Default

    Anyone, in fact, using force from a self defense perspective is best served by having countermeasures that begin with (assuming physical force is needed) control measures - i.e. those that provide ability to evade assault and to detain or capture individuals at the fairly low end of the spectrim. Most uses of force will in fact be here.
    I disagree. This is the way it should be for those professionally involved i.e. LEOs, security, military. Professionals are forced to encounter violent situations when they are otherwise avoidable because they don't have the luxury of simply walking away. For the average Joe on the street, the only violent encounters he will have are those that are unavoidable. When faced with unavoidable violence, the safest course is to end it as expeditiously as possible.

    Attempting to control your assailant creates a much more dangerous scenario which can be fatal to the person being attacked, or bystanders that you are trying to protect. The professional has to accept this as a danger inherent in the job they are being paid to do. To the average Joe, this is unwarranted risk. It is my personal philosophy that if someone physically attacks me, they are trying to kill me. Therefore, I will do what is needed to eliminate that threat by ending the attack as quickly and totally as possible. I will not attempt to control my attacker as I have no need to capture him. I do, however, need to render him unable to carry on his attack. Whether that is unconcious or dead is irrelevant to my mind as it is self defense. This very philosophy has gotten me out of a few fights here in redneck land as I told them about it when they wouldn't let me walk away. It's amazing how their mind changes when they discover that they may well die if they try what they've threatened.
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

  10. #145
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    1,174
    Likes (received)
    343

    Default

    Paul

    On one level you are correct. It is a convenient approach to viewing self defense, and one frequently encountered in martial arts, but it is not a practical one, lacking a more global understanding of how violence manifests.

    For the "boogey man" assaults that much of self defense envisions, this is generally true. Maximum damage to end the assault, and flee, if the attack is unavoidable. Hopefully it is effective...

    You will almost never encounter such a situation if you lead a responsible life, are of middle class background, educated, and stay out of bad places. These DO happen, so it is good to have this approach in your toolbox, though. But if all you have in that toolbox is a hammer, doesn't mean you get to call every situation a nail.

    Because even in cases of extreme violence there is commonly a need to control people. Jared Loughner, the Gabbie Giffords active shooter (who killed several people), was stopped in the process of murder by citizens who tackled and pinned him to the ground and prevented him from reloading his pistol.....

    You might also be in a situation where dealing with a violent threat may require some level of control of the threat simply to cover your family's escape.

    Or, you may have decided to intervene with a man brutally assaulting his wife, or a child, and you hit him and escape, and he simply starts in again - having some level of ability to control him would be critical.

    Then again, you could simply deal with that as "not my problem." I have a higher expectation for people training seriously in martial arts, while at the same time I teach a lot about judgment and decision making as to just when one might want to get involved in a situation "not your own."


    On the flip side of the coin, the far more likely situation you may deal with will be a lower level encounter that still might go physical. You are not in any way allowed to treat any assault/attack as if it were potentially lethal and act as if it was so...again with only having a hammer..... This is unreasonable and irresponsible, at best.

    So the aggressive panhandler, the guy that gropes your wife and then grabs her, the drunken uncle, the crazy parent at the kids game, or the elderly dementia sufferer that starts beating someone at the buffet, or (any number of situations) that might involve some level of physical engagement simply is not very well handled by extreme measures, or by repeatedly beating or slamming someone down, disengaging, only to be re-engaged and start the situation over again.

    Certainly, after an initial encounter he *may* leave or keep his distance....but he may not. Far better - and far less force needs to be used if - when appropriate to the situation - the person is controlled and held until police arrive.

    Or, again, "best just not get involved." Always a wise and tactical option. In my opinion, not always a moral one, in particular with someone who is "trained for this kind of stuff." Or maybe the matter is properly trained...

    I look to that other classic bushi attitude of being able to control the untrained without resorting to the use of the sword.....if you espouse that kind of approach you should be able to control someone when they are a threat, but beating them senseless is not acceptable.

    It's just having a much wider understanding of violent encounters, and exercising judgment, decisions making, and reasonableness appropriately. Though there are very few dojo in which this is realistically trained.

  11. #146
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Blue Ridge, Texas
    Posts
    2,000
    Likes (received)
    125

    Default

    But, the situations that you just envisioned are not self-defense situations. Self defense implies that you are protecting yourself from attack. Preemptively attacking to prevent harm (or further harm) is an entirely different situation which requires an entirely different mind set than simply defending oneself.

    While I agree that locks and pins are good and necessary things to have in your toolbox, I was disagreeing with your assertion that control measures are most important for self defense.

    I look to that other classic bushi attitude of being able to control the untrained without resorting to the use of the sword ...
    The classic bushi approach to this attitude is to be extremely aware of your surroundings and always thinking. This allows you to prevent or avoid most situations that would otherwise require a violent response.
    Last edited by pgsmith; 14th March 2012 at 22:30.
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

  12. #147
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    1,174
    Likes (received)
    343

    Default

    Paul

    Of course self defense is different from choosing to protect others. It is not entirely a different mindset. Not really interested in splitting hairs, though.

    The attitude that allows you to avoid most situations is exactly true. But there are also situations that you are not able to avoid.

  13. #148
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    1,174
    Likes (received)
    343

    Default

    Ah - re-reading I see the problem - that is a hair properly split, Paul, and thanks for pointing it out.


    I should say I belive the fully trained person should be capable in measures including control measures up to more injurious responses.

  14. #149
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Washington State, USA
    Posts
    3,324
    Likes (received)
    48

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hissho View Post
    From controlling to killing bad guys.

    That is *your* rule of engagement, but it may not be your employer's. (Or, for that matter, the jury's.)

    This is why I have believed for a very long time that the fundamental question revolves around deciding in advance what you are willing to kill for, die for, and live with afterwards.

  15. #150
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    1,174
    Likes (received)
    343

    Default

    Not mine, rather it is a baseline knowledge of my abilities and limitations against an understanding of use of force law, human performance under stress, and situational factors all pertaining. Though it is true that a Jury or prosecutor may not see it that way. They may also have little understanding of the factors above. Who is right?

    Also, what one may be willing to kill or die for may not be at all reasonable. If that were the case anyone could simply make up their own rules. Those that do tend to end up prison.....or teach martial arts.

    Still, you are correct in that knowing those things- in addition to study and practice of reasonable responses to varied scenarios - all help to develop confidence and an ability to maintain relative composure and effectively use skills during the real thing.

Page 10 of 13 FirstFirst ... 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •