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Thread: Is the Daito-ryu Takumakai "Soden" available for purchase?

  1. #16
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    Hey Jose'

    Sorry for the wrong city. The area gets very confusing for me up there.

    Anyway, Igor if you are interested in some Daito-ryu on the mat check out Jose'. Jose' has been around for a long while and has trained up some really good guys. And he is a really nice guy.

    Good luck with your research.

    Chris
    Christopher Covington

    Daito-ryu aikijujutsu
    Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage-ryu heiho

    All views expressed here are my own and don't necessarily represent the views of the arts I practice, the teachers and people I train with or any dojo I train in.

  2. #17
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    Hey Chris,

    Thanks for a good reference. May be someday this visit will become a reality, and by the way i really appreciate all the good references that you guys are giving me. You are exibiting a welcoming spirit that's not too very common these days. Thanks,

    Sincerely,
    Igor Lurye.
    igor A. lurye

    "Carry water, chop wood, dream".

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChameleonLight View Post
    This is a reasonable proposition, and thank you for that. But right now I don't have any intention of being thrown by anybody, neither do I want to be pinned to the ground, or have my joints "locked" (i know they can be) and so I ll just restrict my interest to a fan/enthusiast level for now and just try to get the information that's available.

    Sincerely,
    Igor Lurye.
    Hello Igor,

    If you don't want to be thrown or locked...I don't see the point of having Soden as part of your library. As far as learning Daito-ryu is concerned(any branch) you will need to learn from a qualified teacher for sure. And part of that will be taking ukemi... :0)!!!
    As far as historical information about Soden goes, do some research online. The Aikido journal website, the wonderful book by Stanly Pranin about Daito-ryu. There is plenty of information to satisfy historical/cultural intrest from behind a keyboard.
    Also as ChrisC mentioned already, if you want to see what the Soden waza is like get yourself a copy of Budo Renshu and Budo. I have been told that every technique in those books is part of Soden!!! Enjoy.

    All the Best,
    Chris Western

  4. #19
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    Hey Christian Western! (there is one more Christian here that's why I am using your last name).

    The truth is that i agree with you, and I probably should be learning some ukemi. However there are no ukemi in Daito Ryu from my limited understanding, as when you hit the floor that was cause you ve been thrown, not cause you chose to roll. That taken into account, there is probably no way of resisting a good technique unless you can offer something else that is as good. Taking this type of logic into account, I think one should be able to choose whether they want to be thrown or not. Though as i said: I do agree with you on the point of "learning from the qualified teacher".

    I have read Mr. Pranin's books, and they are actually a valued part of my small but terse librarty. I have had BUDO in my possesion in the past, but unfortunately i don't have it anymore for the reasons i don't want to mention right now. I am sure though that it is unlike the "Soden".

    Sincerely,
    Igor Lurye.
    igor A. lurye

    "Carry water, chop wood, dream".

  5. #20
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    Hello Again Igor,

    I once showed my copies of Budo and Budo Renshu to a high ranking member of the Takumakai. His comment to me was,"great books...all of those techniques are part of Soden waza."!!! So there you go, Soden waza right under your nose!!! Also check out the Noma Dojo photos. At that point Ueshiba Sensei was still teaching and practicing Daito-ryu. Great stuff.

    Take Care,

    Chris Western

  6. #21
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    May be you are right &>)

    Sincerely,
    Igor Lurye.
    igor A. lurye

    "Carry water, chop wood, dream".

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Western View Post
    Hello Again Igor,

    I once showed my copies of Budo and Budo Renshu to a high ranking member of the Takumakai. His comment to me was,"great books...all of those techniques are part of Soden waza."!!! So there you go, Soden waza right under your nose!!! Also check out the Noma Dojo photos. At that point Ueshiba Sensei was still teaching and practicing Daito-ryu. Great stuff.

    Take Care,

    Chris Western
    That's true, some of the volumes of the Soden document the techniques that Takuma Hisa learned from Ueshiba - at around the same time that "Budo" was written.

    Other volumes contain techniques learned from Sokaku Takeda after he took over the Asahi Shimbun dojo.

    There are so many techniques, many of the photos without notes or explanations, that many of them are no longer practiced, and are effectively lost.

    Best,

    Chris

  8. #23
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    Unhappy

    ...effectively lost, a pity, though one wonders if it is at all possible to "loose" anything? Can something that wasn't really gained/learned/realized be lost?

    Sincerely,
    Igor Lurye.
    igor A. lurye

    "Carry water, chop wood, dream".

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Li View Post
    That's true, some of the volumes of the Soden document the techniques that Takuma Hisa learned from Ueshiba - at around the same time that "Budo" was written.

    Other volumes contain techniques learned from Sokaku Takeda after he took over the Asahi Shimbun dojo.

    There are so many techniques, many of the photos without notes or explanations, that many of them are no longer practiced, and are effectively lost.

    Best,

    Chris
    Chris,

    Hello!!! Good thing the Takumakai has many students intrested in Soden. There is research, shugyo, tanren going on that brings this set of waza to life. It's great to catch a glimpse into the past...to practice/experiment with the waza that such great Budoka like Takeda Sokaku and Ueshiba Morihei were doing!!! So hopefully not lost...!!! Good to hear from you. Take care. :0)

    All the Best,

    ChrisWestern

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Western View Post
    Chris,

    Hello!!! Good thing the Takumakai has many students intrested in Soden. There is research, shugyo, tanren going on that brings this set of waza to life. It's great to catch a glimpse into the past...to practice/experiment with the waza that such great Budoka like Takeda Sokaku and Ueshiba Morihei were doing!!! So hopefully not lost...!!! Good to hear from you. Take care. :0)

    All the Best,

    ChrisWestern
    Here's an interesting quote from Yutaka Amatsu:

    The seventh, eighth and ninth volumes have only simple explanations. Hisa san asked me to rewrite them into detailed ones. I asked him to teach all of them to me, as they are too difficult to understand only with these simple explanations. Hisa san taught me all of the difficult wazas. I am the only student who was taught all volumes of the Soden but I quit Daitoryu before rewriting them.
    And some interesting comments on the Soden from Hakaru Mori:

    The Soden are contained in a series of “technical manuals” compiled by Takuma Hisa to record the techniques of Daito-ryu that he learned between 1933 and 1939 at the Asahi Newspaper dojo, first from Morihei Ueshiba and later from Sokaku Takeda. Volumes one through six contain techniques learned from Ueshiba and seven through nine contain techniques learned from Takeda. Volume ten is on secret arrest techniques for police and volume eleven is on women’s self-defense technique. A total of 547 techniques appear in the Soden, but according to Director Hakaru Mori there are hundreds more that remain unrecorded. A portion of the techniques from volumes ten and eleven appeared in a budo magazine published before the war called Shin Budo (New Budo) and these have been reprinted in Aiki News #85 through 90.
    Best,

    Chris

  11. #26
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    Hey Chris,

    Amatsu Sensei has some intresting things to say about Daito-ryu. I know he was interviewed by The Japanese language AikiNews. I think #120...part of it is translated on the Finnish Takimakai website, but maybe not all of it. Amatsu has some intresting things to say about the use of the legs. Might be neat for someone to translate it into English...hint,hint... :0)!!! It seems that Amatsu Sensei exclusively teaches Soden waza to this day even at his age. Talk to you soon.

    Take Care,

    ChrisWestern

  12. #27
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    Default Interesting pieces of information...

    Thanks Mr. Li,

    These are very interesting pieces of information. It would be so great to have access to volumes 7-9! Of course, considering how much variety is there one can certainly try to guess the nature of some techniques, something along the lines of: do you pin them using the palm or the knee, when and where the atemi is placed etc. But as much as we want to do the guess work, we may never know the capacity of Takeda-sensei's knowledge and ability. That's messed up.

    Sincerely,
    Igor Lurye.
    igor A. lurye

    "Carry water, chop wood, dream".

  13. #28
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    Beer Enjoying

    Everytime I see more added to this thread I get excited!! I think the fact with have the extensive number of waza we have now in Daito ryu is more than enough. Even the thought that Takeda may have not commited everything he knew to paper or taught it seems mind boggling really. I'm just glad I have a chance to experience a version of Daito Ryu (Hakuho ryu) because there where many school that didn't survive to the modern age and still some that are slowly dieing now. This thread and research that people do on Daito ryu is a good thing!!! It means the waza will continue for many years to come.
    James L. Fitzgerald
    Senso Ryu (99/03)
    Hakuho ryu Indy study group
    http://thejumonkan.webs.com

  14. #29
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    I absolutely agree with you James,
    As with Tai Ji Quan that I practice - many people love the idea of this complex art, and probably as many would like to emulate the luminaries, that's fine, BUT FAR from everybody wants to except the premises and make this art truly their own, thus the immense amount of variation based on some cultural traits, samuraism?

    p.s. "rei" alone requires a lot of serious consideration and study of a mature mind, not that i have it, but still, cool to mention it

    Sincerely,
    Igor Lurye.
    igor A. lurye

    "Carry water, chop wood, dream".

  15. #30
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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 14th June 2014 at 06:09.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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