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Thread: New Kamokuhyo

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    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post
    So what is this attack, exactly? The grab appears clear, then follows a twisting upward movement – to the outside or inside? To the outside would make more sense, since it leads to a situation slightly resembling ude ushiro neji age, but it would make the kagite and kuzushi harder, too.
    No harder than a similar movement for kiri kaeshi nuki...

    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post
    We teach keri age as a quick snapping technique without full extension of the leg that can be executed at roughly arm's length. Keri komi, however, we teach as a pushing movement at full extension of the leg. The obvious relevant difference here is ma'ai: I don't see how keri komi can possibly be performed at the distance in ryusui geri (namely mae!), if it's executed without a step for shusha, namely at arm's length (or less in mae!).
    I think you're being too prescriptive with your definitions. Keri komi must make contact driving forwards; keri age makes contact driving upwards. Beyond that there is plenty of scope for variation in range and extension - experiment and see what you can do!
    Steve Malton
    Shorinji Kempo
    Oxford Dojo

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  3. #17
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    Gassho!

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Malton View Post
    No harder than a similar movement for kiri kaeshi nuki...
    But that's ude ushiro neji age, so not the same thing. In that case the arm is being driven backwards and upwards, which doesn't make sense for just the wrist (i. e. you can't drive the wrist backwards without the arm, at least not without ripping the hand off ). Hence my question.


    I think you're being too prescriptive with your definitions. Keri komi must make contact driving forwards; keri age makes contact driving upwards. Beyond that there is plenty of scope for variation in range and extension - experiment and see what you can do!
    That's an interesting way of looking at it. It levels most of the difference between the two techniques as we teach them, to the point where naming them differently doesn't make much sense anymore (e. g. you can't really kick forwards for jodan, unless while jumping or fighting small children), but it certainly allows for much more variation in execution. I'll have to play with that in the dojo …

    Kesshu,
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    Jan Lipsius
    少林寺拳法
    Shorinjikempo
    Humboldt University Berlin Branch

    "An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind." Gandhi

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    Gassho,

    My two-cents:

    1. With regards to katate oshi nuki or kote maki gaeshi attack, we practice it in a similar way as for okuri gote (i.e. we push shusha's hand to the outside while usually delivering furi zuki with the free hand). The difference is that shusha's stance is now [gyaku] gedan gamae, not chudan, and we grab his hand from below, so we must twist our arm while pushing (or else it would be somewhat "orthopedic", and our shoulder would hurt). This makes the movement more like an arc, with a component to the back and upside, like sensei Anders has stated.
    Also, by grabbing from below we make it an uchi grab, not soto as usually is the grab from hiraki gamae "front-to-front-hand"

    2. With regards to ryusui geri, I didn't notice the kamokuhyo stated keri komi as counter.
    • For the ushiro form, we used to practice both keri komi or keri age, depending on the position of kosha:
      • If he is bending forwards, it is perfect for keri age (the ascending path of keri age will find kosha's bended torso in its way).
      • If he is very straight (vertically), keri komi is needed to impact sanmai (keri age would slip upwards).

    • For the mae form, we usually counter strike with mawashi geri. We'll have to practice with kerikomi.


    3. Looking at it, I've found that for Tenshi geri the official counter is keri age. What's different between both techniques to justify that? - I don't know.

    Best regards.
    Kesshu,
    Fernando Fernández de Bobadilla
    WSKO Almería Branch - SPAIN

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    Gassho!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fernando View Post
    For the mae form, we usually counter strike with mawashi geri.
    I've seen that, too.


    3. Looking at it, I've found that for Tenshi[n] geri the official counter is keri age. What's different between both techniques to justify that? - I don't know.
    Yes, that's weird, isn't it.

    Kesshu,
    ______ Jan.
    Jan Lipsius
    少林寺拳法
    Shorinjikempo
    Humboldt University Berlin Branch

    "An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind." Gandhi

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    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post
    But that's ude ushiro neji age, so not the same thing. In that case the arm is being driven backwards and upwards, which doesn't make sense for just the wrist (i. e. you can't drive the wrist backwards without the arm, at least not without ripping the hand off ). Hence my question.
    Sorry, I was in a rush and not clear. I meant a similar movement for the shusha - the arm is being moved and twisted and shusha moves and rotates around the twist to gain kagite shuho. Shusha's movement is just like with ushiro ude neji age and kiri kaeshi nuki, but they end up on the inside of the arm instead of the outside.

    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post
    That's an interesting way of looking at it. It levels most of the difference between the two techniques as we teach them, to the point where naming them differently doesn't make much sense anymore (e. g. you can't really kick forwards for jodan, unless while jumping or fighting small children), but it certainly allows for much more variation in execution. I'll have to play with that in the dojo …
    Hmm, I might wait for Sensei Anders to wade in on this one. I've never bothered to translate "komi" before: turns out it means "to deepen". Keri age: rising kick. Keri komi: deepening kick. I think that suggests the difference in striking angle/direction (and therefore also foot position?) is enough to differentiate.

    (Sidenote: I've seen Maehara-sensei doing a forward-striking kick but with the foot pulled back to make contact using the heel - he had another name for that one too, maybe kyakuto-geri?)
    Last edited by Steve Malton; 30th September 2015 at 21:28. Reason: Typo
    Steve Malton
    Shorinji Kempo
    Oxford Dojo

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    Gassho!

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Malton View Post
    Sorry, I was in a rush and not clear. I meant a similar movement for the shusha - the arm is being moved and twisted and shusha moves and rotates around the twist to gain kagite shuho. Shusha's movement is just like with ushiro ude neji age and kiri kaeshi nuki, but they end up on the inside of the arm instead of the outside.
    Ah, yes, now I get it. Arigato!


    I've never bothered to translate "komi" before: turns out it means "to deepen". Keri age: rising kick. Keri komi: deepening kick. I think that suggests the difference in striking angle/direction (and therefore also foot position?) is enough to differentiate.
    Funny: I would've interpreted that exactly the other way round (i. e., the difference is in the execution – snapping vs. striking – not the angle or direction).


    (Sidenote: I've seen Maehara-sensei doing a forward-striking kick but with the foot pulled back to make contact using the heel - he had another name for that one too, maybe kyakuto-geri?)
    Off the top of my head, kakato geri?

    Kesshu,
    ______ Jan.
    Jan Lipsius
    少林寺拳法
    Shorinjikempo
    Humboldt University Berlin Branch

    "An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind." Gandhi

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    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post
    Funny: I would've interpreted that exactly the other way round (i. e., the difference is in the execution – snapping vs. striking – not the angle or direction).
    Wouldn't life be dull if we all thought the same?
    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post
    Off the top of my head, kakato geri?
    Yes, that could have been it.
    Steve Malton
    Shorinji Kempo
    Oxford Dojo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Malton View Post
    Wouldn't life be dull if we all thought the same?
    So very dull!

    JL
    Jan Lipsius
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    Shorinjikempo
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    "An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind." Gandhi

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    Gassho!

    There is a pair of things with the shodan curriculum that (I think) might be mistakes. I'd welcome any information concerning these:


    1. In page 38, the 3rd week under "Basic Practice", appears "haro kyaku geki". I had never seen it, and I asked some sensei who hadn't heard about it either. Does anybody know if it has some meaning in Shorinji Kempo or is just a mistake?
    2. The philosophy examination is described in page 39. We are supposed to write two fixed essays at home before the examination (homework assignment) and then, the day of the testing, we'll be given four questions, each from one of the groups described in the same page (supervised essays). The thing is, on page 44 there is a summary of the essays/homework assignments for each grade and, for shodan, the supervised essays have nothing to do with the subjects in page 39. What criterion do you follow in your branch?


    Thank you for your help, and Happy New Year!!

    Kesshu.
    Fernando Fernández de Bobadilla
    WSKO Almería Branch - SPAIN

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    Hi Fernando
    Hopefully I can help out

    Quote Originally Posted by Fernando View Post
    1. In page 38, the 3rd week under "Basic Practice", appears "haro kyaku geki". I had never seen it, and I asked some sensei who hadn't heard about it either. Does anybody know if it has some meaning in Shorinji Kempo or is just a mistake?
    This is not a mistake the phrase "harō kyaku geki" is written in kanji like this: 波浪脚撃
    It means roughly "counter with leg in wave motion", harō 波浪 is wave and kyaku geki is "leg attack". The same phrase is used in the Tokuhon when the Kenkei 拳系 (technique group/family) Kakuritsu ken 鶴立拳 is explained (page 37), but in the English Tokuhon it is translated and they don't use that phrase.
    In the Japanese Kamoku and the Japanese Tokuhon they use the same wording in the description of each Kenkei (page 37 in the Tokuhon) as they use in the page of the objectives for each rank in the Kamoku (for Kakuritsu ken see page 37 in the English Kamoku).

    In the Kamoku it is (if I interpret correctly) a little layout mistake in the English version (that also might help with the confusing), the harō kyaku geki should be seen as a "heading" and the following text an example of exercise under that heading.
    This is how it is written in the Japanese:
    波浪脚撃
     膝受と金的蹴
    harō kyaku geki
     hiza uke & kinteki geri

    (so as you can see there is a small indent, indicating this)


    Quote Originally Posted by Fernando View Post
    1. The philosophy examination is described in page 39. We are supposed to write two fixed essays at home before the examination (homework assignment) and then, the day of the testing, we'll be given four questions, each from one of the groups described in the same page (supervised essays). The thing is, on page 44 there is a summary of the essays/homework assignments for each grade and, for shodan, the supervised essays have nothing to do with the subjects in page 39. What criterion do you follow in your branch?
    The misunderstanding here is because of what I would say is a typo in the English Kamoku. In the English kamoku I have at hand (don't know if it has been fixed in later printings) the left column says "Supervised Essay Examination" and the right column says "Homework Assignments".
    The original Japanese says in the left "学科科目 gakka kamoku" and in the right 宿題 shukudai which basically means homework.

    So the left column, 学科科目 gakka kamoku, is subjects to study, or "curriculum over subjects" so these are the subjects on should study during the time on practice from each rank to the next. So this "Supervised Essay Examination" is wrong and it should just say gakka kamoku.
    The right column indicates the subjects for the written homework to be submitted for the test. But in the case for shodan the subjects for the written test on the examination day is those listed on page 39 (one subject from each category 1-4).

    I hope this explanation makes sense. If something is not clear just ask again.



    Quote Originally Posted by Fernando View Post
    Thank you for your help, and Happy New Year!!
    The same to you.

    /Anders
    Anders Pettersson
    www.shorinjikempo.net - www.shorinjikempo.se
    半ばは自己の幸せを、半ばは他人の幸せを - 宗 道臣
    "Nakaba wa jiko no shiawase wo, nakaba wa hito no shiawase wo" - So Doshin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anders Pettersson View Post
    This is not a mistake the phrase "harō kyaku geki" is written in kanji like this: 波浪脚撃
    It means roughly "counter with leg in wave motion", harō 波浪 is wave and kyaku geki is "leg attack". The same phrase is used in the Tokuhon when the Kenkei 拳系 (technique group/family) Kakuritsu ken 鶴立拳 is explained (page 37), but in the English Tokuhon it is translated and they don't use that phrase.
    In the Japanese Kamoku and the Japanese Tokuhon they use the same wording in the description of each Kenkei (page 37 in the Tokuhon) as they use in the page of the objectives for each rank in the Kamoku (for Kakuritsu ken see page 37 in the English Kamoku).

    In the Kamoku it is (if I interpret correctly) a little layout mistake in the English version (that also might help with the confusing), the harō kyaku geki should be seen as a "heading" and the following text an example of exercise under that heading.
    This is how it is written in the Japanese:
    波浪脚撃
     膝受と金的蹴
    harō kyaku geki
     hiza uke & kinteki geri

    (so as you can see there is a small indent, indicating this)
    Gassho!

    This actually came up at this year's German seminar with Aosaka-sensei and Satoh-sensei (another hachidan from Japan): They both agreed that it should actually read haro gyaku geri and it's the foot movement in (IIRC) nami gaeshi techniques. Your explanation sounds better, though.

    Kesshu,
    ______ Jan.
    Jan Lipsius
    少林寺拳法
    Shorinjikempo
    Humboldt University Berlin Branch

    "An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind." Gandhi

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    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post
    This actually came up at this year's German seminar with Aosaka-sensei and Satoh-sensei (another hachidan from Japan): They both agreed that it should actually read haro gyaku geri and it's the foot movement in (IIRC) nami gaeshi techniques. Your explanation sounds better, though.
    My guess here would be that they didn't have any Japanese version of the Kamokuhyo and Tokuhon at hand and based their reply upon just the English (with romaji only) version of the kamoku.

    In the Japanese Tokuhon they have also used furigana to make the reading (pronunciation) clear. And in the Japanese Kamoku it is also used in the same way (but here not with the fuirigana).
    If they had seen the Japanese kamokuhyo and Tokuhon they would most likely have explained it the same way as I did.

    /Anders
    Anders Pettersson
    www.shorinjikempo.net - www.shorinjikempo.se
    半ばは自己の幸せを、半ばは他人の幸せを - 宗 道臣
    "Nakaba wa jiko no shiawase wo, nakaba wa hito no shiawase wo" - So Doshin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anders Pettersson View Post
    Hi Fernando
    Hopefully I can help out

    (...)

    I hope this explanation makes sense. If something is not clear just ask again.

    (...)
    /Anders
    Wow! - Certainly, you can help out quite a lot!!! Now it is all clear. Thank you very much, sensei.

    Also, I hadn't noticed that "haro kyaku geki" appears on page 37 in the explanation of Kakuritsu kenkei. If I had seen, maybe I could have supposed it wasn't a mistake and it was related to the way the counterattack is delivered.

    Best regards,
    Kesshu.
    Fernando Fernández de Bobadilla
    WSKO Almería Branch - SPAIN

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    Gassho!

    Quote Originally Posted by Anders Pettersson View Post
    My guess here would be that they didn't have any Japanese version of the Kamokuhyo and Tokuhon at hand and based their reply upon just the English (with romaji only) version of the kamoku.

    In the Japanese Tokuhon they have also used furigana to make the reading (pronunciation) clear. And in the Japanese Kamoku it is also used in the same way (but here not with the fuirigana).
    If they had seen the Japanese kamokuhyo and Tokuhon they would most likely have explained it the same way as I did.
    They had the kamoku, but not the tokuhon at hand. Which makes sense, then, I suppose.

    Kesshu,
    ______ Jan.
    Jan Lipsius
    少林寺拳法
    Shorinjikempo
    Humboldt University Berlin Branch

    "An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind." Gandhi

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    Gassho,

    Here I go with another of those "curiosity-questions". I hope someone can give me an answer (not looking at anybody, but I wouldn't mind if I got one from Anders sensei... )

    This time is about "Hiji nuki continued to mae tembin" (as it is mentioned in the kamoku).



    • First, I'd like to know whether this is a unique hokei or is a combination of two different ones. In the kamoku It is listed altogether as a Ryuoken hokei but thinking of it, to me it seems to be a nuki waza (ryuoken) continued by a gyaku waza (or better said, tembin waza).
    • If it can be considered as two separate hokei, then I also wonder if this "mae tembin"...
      • ...refers to the pin at the end of the technique and then belongs to Kongoken. In this case, I also wonder if it is the same -or has something to do with- "mae tembin gatame" (Kongoken, from the ikkyu kamoku). We practice mae tembin gatame as the "standard" pin after maki gote, when kosha falls on the side, and tembin gatame (ura) as a variation of the same pin when kosha is facing down the floor, but maybe we are wrong. -OR-
      • ...refers to the process of taking kosha to the floor. Then it should belong to Ryukaken kenkei, like okuri yoko tembin.

    • Anyway: If they are two separate hokei, it seems strange to me that no one of them appears as a single hokei anywhere in the kamoku; but if they are one "compound" hokei, then what I find strange is that it belongs to Ryuoken. This is because when we find this kind of mix of nuki waza and gyaku/tembin waza (as in ryote okuri gote), the whole hokei is classified as a Ryukaken hokei (after all, almost every Ryukaken hokei "starts with" a Ryuoken one)
    • Putting apart the matter of the kenkei, I feel the same curiosity with ura gaeshi nage. Does it "exist" apart from gyaku gote? Is it listed by its own anywhere in the Kyohan, or gayku-gote-ura-gaeshi-nage is one single hokei? Do you practice it independently from gyaku gote?



    Thanks in advance, and my best wishes to all kenshi.

    Kesshu
    Fernando Fernández de Bobadilla
    WSKO Almería Branch - SPAIN

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