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Thread: BSKF Beat WSKO

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    Quote Originally Posted by dirk.bruere View Post
    Toshio was interested in and IIRC teaching another form of Buddhism. I believe that this clashed with WSKO policy. I do not remember whether he was forced out, but he definitely left. I also recall at one UK summer camp Sensei Aosaka picking him for randoori demonstration. Toshio was quite a small man, maybe not much over 5ft. Sensei Aosakai kicked the shit out of him. I have never seen anyone beaten in public so badly. Each time he was hit Toshio would gasso rae and carry on. he did not strike back and pulled his techniques - unlike his opponent. Afterwards he was covered in bruises. So that might have influenced his decision.
    How many people witnessed this. I wonder why no one i.e. other senior kenshi intervened
    Last edited by stevenm; 19th December 2014 at 19:48. Reason: grammar
    Steve Moore

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    This story saddens me the more I think of it. It is a limited version in that it gives no real reason for the punishment, but the outcome seems to be the epitome of bully-culture in action. The abuse of authority, the inability to stand up to injustice when carried out by those considered "higher" and a willingness to overlook obvious wrongs... it is everything that shouldn't happen. It reminded me of that sociology experiment with the subject being encouraged to give electric shocks to another person when they answer questions incorrectly, which then increase gradually in current until they cause great pain - at which point the subject should feel compelled to stop the experiment but in the majority of cases the subject continues to administer the punishment as they have been conditioned to assume it is their "duty" to do so. It is a famous experiment that has been repeated many times, does it have a name?
    David Noble
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  4. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tripitaka of AA View Post
    It is a famous experiment that has been repeated many times, does it have a name?
    Gassho!

    You're thinking of the Milgram experiments, David-san.

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    Thank you Jan. I was just looking it up, here. In a 1974 book, talking about the experiments he first devised in 1963;
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley Milgram
    Ordinary people, simply doing their jobs, and without any particular hostility on their part, can become agents in a terrible destructive process. Moreover, even when the destructive effects of their work become patently clear, and they are asked to carry out actions incompatible with fundamental standards of morality, relatively few people have the resources needed to resist authority
    Last edited by Tripitaka of AA; 20th December 2014 at 12:39.
    David Noble
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevenm View Post
    How many people witnessed this. I wonder why no one i.e. other senior kenshi intervened
    How many? probably around 80 to 100.
    As for why no senior kenshi intervened, the answer is simple. The most senior kenshi of all did not intervene.
    My reaction then, and now, I find interesting.
    Back then I was very junior. I cannot even recall whether I was shodan at the time. However, I assumed two things. First, that "this was the way it was" in Japanese martial arts. After all, we all signed the bit of paper saying that we would accept any punishment deemed fit by WSKO. Second, it involved only Japanese and I did not have any insight into the issues.

    What rather shames me now is that I did not ask and did not talk to Toshio afterwards. Although I knew him, it was not a close connection. If I saw that happening now I would most definitely intervene. It is also one of the many things that has hardened my attitude culturally. I am a liberal westerner. I am English, and not Japanese, and proud of it. The indefinable English quality I most admire is "fair play", and having a senior kenshi beat a junior in a randoori demonstration where the rules say the latter must not hit back, is not on. It is petty, vindictive and above all cowardly.

    There have been other instances of thing which, if I had known of them at the time, would have resulted in me leaving SK. At present though I train purely for exercise. I don't wear an official Gi and I don't/won't wear the new badge. I am happy to be out of all the shit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dirk.bruere View Post
    How many? probably around 80 to 100.
    As for why no senior kenshi intervened, the answer is simple. The most senior kenshi of all did not intervene.
    The most senior kenshi there, was the one giving out the licks.

    As an anecdote to illustrate principles of (bad) behaviour it is disturbing, but it has gaps that could make a difference. What if the "punishment" was being meted out as a fitting correction for bad behaviour by the junior student (eg. if the lower grade instructor had been seen mistreating his students and was now being "educated")? What if there is another person being "taught" (the junior instructor's own teacher is being shown that his student cannot hold his own in randori.. "You think your student is good enough, look at this")?

    It all happened around thirty years ago, when Mizuno Sensei and Aosaka Sensei had been in Europe for 10-15 years each. As for Dirk's estimate of the number of witnesses, I guess that might be about right if it took place at Summer Camp (which would have been one at Canterbury 1983 or 1984), but I don't remember seeing it myself, so perhaps it was a selected group of kenshi, with the rest being otherwise engaged.
    David Noble
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    As far as I know, Toshio never mistreated anyone. As you know, senior kenshi who mistreat juniors get a reputation that spreads rather fast. I think it may have been 1982.

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    No, I was straying into the hypothetical there. I don't recall anything untoward about Toshio's behaviour at all. Which made the mysterious disappearance all the more unexpected. For me it was simply a "not around any more", having not seen the randori. Or at least, I don't think I saw it. I was new enough to not recognise much of what was happening right in front of my eyes. Toshio was still around at the Tenth anniversary Taikai in 1984, so I assume these events took place around then. Linda might remember. Of course, people like Jee Sensei and Paul White Sensei, Paul Jarman Sensei, Terry Goodman Sensei will have been aware of the consequences, if not the causes. As Dirk mentioned, the "Japanese" relationships were unfathomable to most of us. When my wife Yoriko met Mizuno Sensei for the first time she mentioned how his way of speaking to fellow Japanese was quite different from how he spoke to his English friends. Perfectly normal I suppose, but she noted that the English were given a softer image than Mizuno shared amongst his compatriots. Yoriko is a modern Japanese woman who had little time for Budo when in Japan, she had found Budoka to often be "old-fashioned" and "up-tight". While Mizuno Sensei can appear an extremely gentle and laid-back chap, his way of talking in Japanese was quite formal and less friendly. Nothing wrong or unusual about that, but it does serve to explain why and how things that took place between Japanese kenshi were sometimes unexpected and unexplained.

    This drift is getting far away from the Thread title, but it does bring up some interesting questions about how to run a Federation/Association/etc. Some of these issues were tackled in the BSKF constitution I believe, although whether is is possible to limit the effect of people on the system is something that history will decide in due course. It is all about the people after all.
    David Noble
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  12. #54
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    Anyway, this is more than 30 years old and history. A lot of what happens with regard to WSKO can be explained by assuming it is just a big corporation run as most are, by people who are promoted for reasons other than their ability to run such an organization efficiently. It's why gigantic corporations do fail, from car manufacturers to big names like Kodak.

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    It's funny really. When you speak to all the Europeans that have left WSKO, Aosaka's name always comes up ;-) His top ranking kenshi left and the Italians have some very interesting story's. Ninety percent of Swiss dojos have an interesting take as well. WSKO calls him a legend (and when I was a young, teen kenshi myself so did I.) yet, and here's the thing, no-one really likes him. Oh yes, they may admire his technique but the whispers say it all. I expect someone will try and call me out - but people know..... and say nothing. Leaders? My arse.
    Sean Dixie

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    Quote Originally Posted by sean dixie View Post
    I expect someone will try and call me out - but people know.....
    Don't bother, I won't bite. Ask your Sensei, they'll tell you he's amazing. And did you know he killed a dog? Oh what a howa that was! We all laughed! And he's amazing at street fights. Lovely chap, salt of the earth. Proper geezer.
    Sean Dixie

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    Quote Originally Posted by sean dixie View Post
    I expect someone will try and call me out - but people know.
    Let us know when you've been outed
    Steve Moore

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    Quote Originally Posted by sean dixie View Post
    It's funny really. When you speak to all the Europeans that have left WSKO, Aosaka's name always comes up ;-) His top ranking kenshi left and the Italians have some very interesting story's. Ninety percent of Swiss dojos have an interesting take as well. WSKO calls him a legend (and when I was a young, teen kenshi myself so did I.) yet, and here's the thing, no-one really likes him. Oh yes, they may admire his technique but the whispers say it all. I expect someone will try and call me out - but people know..... and say nothing. Leaders? My arse.
    Since you ask so nicely.

    I like him. When I received that letter from the BSKF, informing me that I was banned from taking part in Shorinji Kempo anywhere in the world I went to speak to him face to face (in Switzerland). I was aware of his fearsome rep., but whats right is right. I found him to be very supportive.

    If you have an issue with someone, the first thing to try is to ask the person face to face. I could arrange an introduction if you like.

    btw, I have seen your Chief Instructor get angry and hit people in the dojo on more than one occasion. Have you discussed this with him? I seem to remember a story about a plank

    http://biblehub.com/matthew/7-5.htm
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirk.bruere View Post
    Toshio was interested in and IIRC teaching another form of Buddhism. I believe that this clashed with WSKO policy. I do not remember whether he was forced out, but he definitely left. I also recall at one UK summer camp Sensei Aosaka picking him for randoori demonstration. Toshio was quite a small man, maybe not much over 5ft. Sensei Aosakai kicked the shit out of him. I have never seen anyone beaten in public so badly. Each time he was hit Toshio would gasso rae and carry on. he did not strike back and pulled his techniques - unlike his opponent. Afterwards he was covered in bruises. So that might have influenced his decision.
    I've also seen Aosaka in action. If he really "kicked the shit" out of some-one they would be leaving in a ambulance. I agree that bullies should always be confronted though. Even in the B.S.K.F.
    Indar Picton-Howell
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    Thinking? Or Sleeping? Both O.K.
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