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Thread: BSKF Beat WSKO

  1. #1
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    Default BSKF Beat WSKO

    Much as I dislike certain individuals within the BSKF it is good to see common sense prevail

    http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/tm/t-os/...lts/o25813.pdf
    Steve Moore

    Where there’s a will there’s a wont!

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    I'm impressed that the news has spread so fast - more people keep an eye on the IPO rulings page than I had ever considered possible

    I hope that everyone is doing well and is in good health down in Bournemouth - please give my regards to those who remember me from the good ol' days.

    Best regards,
    Mike Sadler

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    I quite enjoyed:

    The use must be by way of real commercial exploitation of the mark on the market for the relevant goods or services, i.e. exploitation that is aimed at maintaining or creating an outlet for the goods or services or a share in that market
    Which they failed to do, as:

    Instead, WSKO members were ordered, on pain of expulsion,
    to purchase clothing from these suppliers. One can only assume that WSKO received a commission on these goods, as they appear to be regarded, by the purchasers, as being significantly over priced. The Japanese companies did not seek out custom from the UK; UK consumers were forced to go to these companies despite the problems of dealing with companies which did not make any real concessions to non-Japanese speaking clients.
    The irony is killing me
    Leon Appleby (Tokyo Ouji)
    半ばは自己の幸せを、半ばは他人の幸せを
    SK Blog at http://www.leonjp.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by stevenm View Post
    Much as I dislike certain individuals within the BSKF it is good to see common sense prevail

    http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/tm/t-os/...lts/o25813.pdf
    Dislike? Age has mellowed you
    Indar Picton-Howell
    印打
    Abujavol

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    And the judgment in the Appeal was handed down this morning. Here it is http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Ch/2014/285.pdf
    Last edited by David Dunn; 17th February 2014 at 13:28. Reason: typo

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    Default Pandora's box?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    And the judgment in the Appeal was handed down this morning. Here it is http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Ch/2014/285.pdf
    Thanks for sharing this info., and well done for taking on an opponent with a lot more resources than you - regardless of the result.

    However, I wonder if you have opened a Pandora's box? Can anyone who has previously trained with the BSKF start their own association/federation and claim to be teaching Shorinji Kempo? If the term "Shorinji Kempo" is simply a generic term like "karate" then presumably the answer is yes.
    Indar Picton-Howell
    印打
    Abujavol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Indar View Post
    Thanks for sharing this info., and well done for taking on an opponent with a lot more resources than you - regardless of the result.

    However, I wonder if you have opened a Pandora's box? Can anyone who has previously trained with the BSKF start their own association/federation and claim to be teaching Shorinji Kempo? If the term "Shorinji Kempo" is simply a generic term like "karate" then presumably the answer is yes.
    Congratulations guys.

    This ruling should not come as a surprise to anyone with half a brain.

    Mind you I could always establish the "Bournemouth Shorinji Kempo Federation" (BSKF).

    See you in court!
    Steve Moore

    Where there’s a will there’s a wont!

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    Default Irony indeed

    Does this judgement mean that the BSKF now has to allow me to practise Shorinji Kempo?

    "Please desist training in Shorinji Kempo immediately, until such time that the BSKF considers otherwise"

    From a letter to me on BSKF headed notepaper and signed by the BSKF general secretary, dated 6th September 2008.
    Indar Picton-Howell
    印打
    Abujavol

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    Well people change opinions it seems:
    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    The cultural issue is of the 'iemoto' system:
    http://www.answers.com/topic/iemoto
    which is explicitly undemocratic. Essentially, you can't change it - that is the nature of the organisation. I don't think there is much point in having a discussion about whether WSKO should be democratic, because it ain't going to happen.

    It also makes the issue of authenticity fairly easy. If you're not registered with hombu as a branchmaster, then it isn't authentic Shorinji Kempo. In Europe, Aosaka Sensei is the headmaster, appointed by Kaiso, and likewise with Mizuno Sensei in the UK. We can't have a vote to change that.
    The bold highlighting is by me.

    I had (still has from my point of view, even if I haven't met them IRL for a few years now) many good friends on both sides (or maybe several sides now since other people have left and formed their own organisations) of the breakup in UK.
    What I find strange is that the people ("BSKF") who have left WSKO and obviously don't like the Shorinji Kempo hombu still wants to call what they do for Shorinji Kempo.
    If I had left I would call it something totally different, but on the other hand if I left I would most likely not do any type of martial art at all.

    /Anders
    Anders Pettersson
    www.shorinjikempo.net - www.shorinjikempo.se
    半ばは自己の幸せを、半ばは他人の幸せを - 宗 道臣
    "Nakaba wa jiko no shiawase wo, nakaba wa hito no shiawase wo" - So Doshin

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    Indar, of course that's what it means. It's always been the case that you are free to practice and teach whatever you like as long as you remain on the right side of the law and any insurance arrangements and other conditions on the venues you use. Any assertions to the contrary are wrong, as this shows, including when they were made by us in the past. All we could say is that you can't use our name to identify what you're doing. The letter you mention should have said "teach under the name of...". In fact the various organisations (Abbey Kempo, Bushin, Bournemouth, Ade Starr's) are entitled to say what they are doing is Shorinji kempo, in part, total, based on etc.

    Anders, you've made a sleight of hand. We didn't leave, we were expelled. What would you do if the Swedish Federation was expelled, but you still wanted to carry on teaching and practicing Shorinji kempo? It's a different scenario. The BSKF existed for six years before joining WSKO. It's existed for four already since being kicked out. Why aren't we entitled to correctly identify what we do? This latter point came up in the appeal hearing. Even if our trademark is confusingly similar to WSKO's, we are entitled to describe our goods and services as "shorinji kempo". WSKO's barrister made that plain.
    David Dunn
    Cambridge Dojo
    BSKF

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    Anders, you've made a sleight of hand. We didn't leave, we were expelled. What would you do if the Swedish Federation was expelled, but you still wanted to carry on teaching and practicing Shorinji kempo? It's a different scenario. The BSKF existed for six years before joining WSKO. It's existed for four already since being kicked out. Why aren't we entitled to correctly identify what we do? This latter point came up in the appeal hearing. Even if our trademark is confusingly similar to WSKO's, we are entitled to describe our goods and services as "shorinji kempo". WSKO's barrister made that plain.
    Well David, now you are bending things a little.
    You were not expelled, the Federation was the organisation that didn't meet the requirements to continue as a country federation of WSKO, but each branch could have stayed in WSKO as what is called associated member. And many branches did just that. It was your own choice to leave.

    Also I do believe all the branches (even if some probably at the time was "associated clubs" of a registered branch) in UK belonged to WSKO since the very beginning (even if the federation at that time wasn't a recognised member), if not then members wouldn't have been able to become registered members nor receive certification for ranks etc. and I am pretty sure they did that.

    And to answer your question what I would do if the Swedish Federation would be "expelled"; I would most likely continue to practice and continue to have my branch stay as a member of the World Shorinji Kempo Organization.

    As for you guys still continue to call what you do as "Shorinji Kempo" is in my mind like if one worked for the Coca-Cola company and had the recipe for Coca-Cola, but left the company and decided to continue to sell and market the drink as "Coca-Cola", probably look very similar and taste very similar, but not the "real thing". It would be better to call it something else, I think.

    This used to be your own view as well, but seems to have changed.

    I think it is sad that you all have left. I had a good relationship with Mizuno-sensei and enjoyed to come over to UK to attend different gasshuku (still do).
    I think Mizuno-sensei got some bad advice (i.e. to continue outside of WSKO) after he was suspended, I would have preferred that you all stayed within WSKO and that Mizuno-sensei could have come back after the suspension period.

    /Anders
    Anders Pettersson
    www.shorinjikempo.net - www.shorinjikempo.se
    半ばは自己の幸せを、半ばは他人の幸せを - 宗 道臣
    "Nakaba wa jiko no shiawase wo, nakaba wa hito no shiawase wo" - So Doshin

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    Just back on e-budo, and have resumed training since about this time last year. I see nothing much has changed. Anyway, I train these days simply for health, fitness and fun. I do not intend to grade again nor wear a Honbu approved Gi with that crap badge, so I guess we won't be meeting at summer camps. And that's my last word on SK politics - a pox on both our houses.

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    Default More than one path to the top of the mountain

    Quote Originally Posted by Anders Pettersson View Post
    And to answer your question what I would do if the Swedish Federation would be "expelled"; I would most likely continue to practice and continue to have my branch stay as a member of the World Shorinji Kempo Organization.

    As for you guys still continue to call what you do as "Shorinji Kempo" is in my mind like if one worked for the Coca-Cola company and had the recipe for Coca-Cola, but left the company and decided to continue to sell and market the drink as "Coca-Cola", probably look very similar and taste very similar, but not the "real thing". It would be better to call it something else, I think.
    Hello Anders,

    I don't think I've seen you since Durham in 2010(?) - I hope you are well.

    When I started, I actually wanted to do the physical martial art of Shorinji kempo and follow the teachings on So Doshin. For much of my time spent training, being a member of WSKO seemed to be a logical way to pursue this, but being a member of WSKO was never an ambition of mine in and of itself.

    If being a member of WSKO is the important thing here, then there is clearly only one path to follow. If practicing the martial art of Shorinji kempo and studying the philosophy of So Doshin, then there appears to be more than one path to the top of the mountain.

    Regards,

    Mike
    Mike Sadler

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    All paths do not lead to the top.
    Kari Maki-Kuutti

    www.shorinjikempo.fi

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    Oh dear Kari, couldn't resist? You've nothing to do with UK Shorinji Kempo or the BSKF. You only know what the WSKO affiliated friends have told you and what WSKO party line is. Oh, and the E-Budo threads where, to be honest nothing could really be said for fear of the great WSKO and it's lawyers. So here you go, if WSKO is the only way to get to your 'top' wherever that maybe... then why have so many talented and formally dedicated instructors forgone that route? Are you better than them? Have they all been brainwashed by 'Mizuno' (Formally WSKO director - unpaid) All of them across Japan, Europe and Japan?
    Sean Dixie

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