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Thread: Daito-ryu & Yagyu shinkage-ryu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff Judge View Post
    At one point he gave a Yagyu Shinkage ryu scroll to Ueshiba....which is not something either of them trained in.
    Actually, Ueshiba (and possibly some of his students) trained in Yagyu Shinkage Ryu under Gejo Kosaburo. Ueshiba apparently taught one of his students a version of aiki-ken that consisted of three kata, clearly derived from the Sankaku set of Yagyu Shinkage Ryu. Meik Skoss has seen these kata practiced and commented that while they were clearly derived from Yagyu, the Shinkage Ryu has essentially been "scooped out" of the forms and replaced with aikido principles. I think that this is discussed in Hidden in Plain Sight in the chapter on aiki weapons.

    Ueshiba apparently came to know Gejo through Takeda Sokaku, who was close friends with Gejo. I'm told that the old Yagyu-style fukuro shinai that is on display at Kondo Sensei's dojo once belonged to Gejo. I have no idea if Takeda ever did any training in Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, but as an accomplished swordsman he was probably at least familiar with what his friend was teaching.

    Having said all of that, the Yagyu scroll he gave Ueshiba-- which apparently contains the Sankaku set-- is still a mystery.
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 12th July 2013 at 23:42. Reason: COPIED FROM ANOTHER THREAD
    David Sims

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    I thought the shinai in Kondo Sensei's dojo were actually Admiral Takeshita's? I didn't have a chance to ask when I was there.

    I will double-check this when I get home but I thought that Gejo was a student of Ueshiba's and therefore a relationship where Ueshiba trained under Gejo was impossible, which is not to say that Ueshiba couldn't have trained with him or watched while he taught his students. The point matters because the essence of a ryu obviously only flows downhill.

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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 14th June 2014 at 05:58.
    Nathan Scott
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    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff Judge View Post
    I thought the shinai in Kondo Sensei's dojo were actually Admiral Takeshita's? I didn't have a chance to ask when I was there.
    In checking my notes, I think that you're right. Oops.

    The point matters because the essence of a ryu obviously only flows downhill.
    Hmm. Maybe.

    Really, we don't know for a fact whether Sokaku or Ueshiba ever enrolled in YSR or trained to any level in any of the techniques. What I think we do know is that Sokaku, for whatever reason, didn't seem to have much respect for YSR. I suspect this is from first hand experience, because I don't think there is any way that he would have studied Itto-ryu, Jikishinkage-ryu, and Kyoshin meichi-ryu, then gone on a musha shugyo, and not ever step into a YSR dojo at some point to see what they were all about! Perhaps he dabbled in it enough to decide it wasn't the art for him (?).
    This is really an interesting question, and it hinges in part on how much access he could have had to YSR. My understanding is that Yagyu Genshu (Gencho? I always get those two confused) of the Owari Yagyu line opened a dojo in Tokyo around 1913, where he taught police and military personnel of various sorts. Prior to 1913, though, I am under the impression that the Owari Yagyu were strictly based in Nagoya.

    If he wasn't exposed to Owari Yagyu, the question becomes whether or not he could have been exposed to the Edo Yagyu line. According to Hall's Encyclopedia of Japanese Martial Arts, the Edo Yagyu line had "gone into a decline and had essentially disappeared as a significant martial arts school by 1868." If Takeda had encountered an Edo line that was on its "last legs," so to speak, he might have developed a low opinion of it, especially in contrast to the extremely vigorous school that he would have known as Shinkage Ryu.
    David Sims

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    My opinion is, in all likelihood, worth exactly what you are paying for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff Judge View Post
    I thought the shinai in Kondo Sensei's dojo were actually Admiral Takeshita's? I didn't have a chance to ask when I was there.
    In checking my notes, I think that you're right. Oops.

    The point matters because the essence of a ryu obviously only flows downhill.
    Hmm. Maybe.

    Really, we don't know for a fact whether Sokaku or Ueshiba ever enrolled in YSR or trained to any level in any of the techniques. What I think we do know is that Sokaku, for whatever reason, didn't seem to have much respect for YSR. I suspect this is from first hand experience, because I don't think there is any way that he would have studied Itto-ryu, Jikishinkage-ryu, and Kyoshin meichi-ryu, then gone on a musha shugyo, and not ever step into a YSR dojo at some point to see what they were all about! Perhaps he dabbled in it enough to decide it wasn't the art for him (?).
    This is really an interesting question, and it hinges in part on how much access he could have had to YSR. My understanding is that Yagyu Genshu (Gencho? I always get those two confused) of the Owari Yagyu line opened a dojo in Tokyo around 1913, where he taught police and military personnel of various sorts. Prior to 1913, though, I am under the impression that the Owari Yagyu were strictly based in Nagoya.

    If he wasn't exposed to Owari Yagyu, the question becomes whether or not he could have been exposed to the Edo Yagyu line. According to Hall's Encyclopedia of Japanese Martial Arts, the Edo Yagyu line had "gone into a decline and had essentially disappeared as a significant martial arts school by 1868." If Takeda had encountered an Edo line that was on its "last legs," so to speak, he might have developed a low opinion of it, especially in contrast to the extremely vigorous school that he would have known as Shinkage Ryu.
    David Sims

    "Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - Terry Pratchet

    My opinion is, in all likelihood, worth exactly what you are paying for it.

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