Aikijujutsu and Aiki-no-Jutsu Demo

[Cady Goldfield]

We do need a consensus on terminology, as a lot of people use "martial applications" as kind of a universal term to encompass all physical encounters. I think that most of us outside the LEO, military, corrections and related professions tend not to think about the aspect of MA applications that you call combatives. To me, any life-or-death confrontation with someone who aims to maim and/or kill me, requires combat for survival. So, even a self-defense scenario, IMO, can be a combative one. Life-or-death hostage rescue, or in the violent home invasion of an ordinary citizen when no cavalry comes to the rescue -- aren't there are gray areas here that can make the latter scenario as needful of combatives (as opposed to "self-defense") as the former?

While musing more on this topic and these videos, I found this. Cross posting again, sorry, but Kevin Leavitt is my new hero:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23174

While semantic, I personally view "combatives" (i.e. "martial" applications) differently than I do self defense, and teach both.

Cady I think you make a fantastic point regarding the need for most people for self defense skills vs. martial applications/combative skills. Even those needing combatives will mostly make use of self defense skills (against groping, minor grabs, for police arrest and control etc. ) than the former.

I think there is a range of situations for which a range of energies and fighting skills apply. The above linked discussion covers pretty much the gamut on the topic, I think.

[Hissho]

We do need a consensus on terminology, as a lot of people use "martial applications" as kind of a universal term to encompass all physical encounters. I think that most of us outside the LEO, military, corrections and related professions tend not to think about the aspect of MA applications that you call combatives. To me, any life-or-death confrontation with someone who aims to maim and/or kill me, requires combat for survival. So, even a self-defense scenario, IMO, can be a combative one. Life-or-death hostage rescue, or in the violent home invasion of an ordinary citizen when no cavalry comes to the rescue -- aren't there are gray areas here that can make the latter scenario as needful of combatives (as opposed to "self-defense") as the former?

Little friendly tweak since we were just having another conversation about terminology:

My own idiosyncratic general usage:

"Combatives" is ANY hand to hand encounter which is a life or death confrontation or could result in serious bodily injury. These are when the use of lethal force or severely injurious techniques are justified. Note: minor bone breaks are not seriously injuries.

The vast majority of self defense encounters and police arrests, even resistive arrests, are NOT combative. These would instead involve more standard awareness, verbal, tactical and contact-evasion, te hodoki type techniques, minor subject control to include medium impact takedowns and osae techniques, and police defensive tactics.

Most people, LE and citizens, have need of the latter far more of the time and don't really need more.

I think whether an instructor does is an open question depending on a variety of variables. Kinda like with the whole topic of aiki, and appropos the thread I linked, a lot of people think they may be doing something applicable in the former that is really more suited to the latter. Which is not a problem since that is what most want and need.

[Kendoguy9]

Hey Kit,

Thanks for the clarification. I think even in budo there are different terms for simillar arts with different focuses such as yoroikumiuchi, goshinjutsu, and taihojutsu (and about a million other terms). The intended goal is different in each with armor grappling representing combatives, goshinjutsu is self defense and taihojutsu police arresting. Whether the stated goal of each is actually ever reached is another question but at least the division is there. I'm sure there is also lot of overlap just as you stated as well. The difficulty for some of us is balancing what we do with what we need. My Daito-ryu study has become much more taihojutsu like here recently. I still practice the kata and still apply aiki but my intent is different. As you say most pople including police don't need much combatives training but we do need more arresting and self defense.

Going back to the OP how do these taiji and aikido type of demonstrations fit into martial applications? They are interesting to watch. I would really love to see a few of these guys on video like a dash cam or a vest cam getting into the thick of things in a hands on incident that is already out of control when they arrive. It seems like what we are seeing is training videos with junior level students without the intent to do harm by either party. I am reminded of the levels of combat as posted by Chris Amberger in the "Secret History of the Sword." I am at work and don't have my copy handy but I'll pull it when I get home. Basically he lists the different types of training from sport to total combat based on their intended goal.

Anyway there are my rambling thoughts for the morning... time for coffee and donuts
Chris

[Cady Goldfield]

Going back to the OP how do these taiji and aikido type of demonstrations fit into martial applications? They are interesting to watch. I would really love to see a few of these guys on video like a dash cam or a vest cam getting into the thick of things in a hands on incident that is already out of control when they arrive. It seems like what we are seeing is training videos with junior level students without the intent to do harm by either party. I am reminded of the levels of combat as posted by Chris Amberger in the "Secret History of the Sword." I am at work and don't have my copy handy but I'll pull it when I get home. Basically he lists the different types of training from sport to total combat based on their intended goal.

These videos are of an introductory class for a brand-new student who evidently has no prior training. And, the uke looks like a pretty recent beginner as well, with just some basic jujutsu and striking/kicking skills. My interest in these clips was not technique, really, but the fact that the instructor has some internal skill that is observable even though he is doing very slo-mo, relatively gentle technique. And even though he is toning it down a lot, the effect on his uke - the kuzushi - is obvious. For someone who is not "internal" who tries to strike a trained fighter who is, it will feel like he is hitting a rubber-coated stone wall... that sends your force back into you augmented with his added force, which he can direct at will to make you bounce backward, get stuffed downward, jacked up on your toes, or dropped into a hole (drawn off-center and thrown, hard). Add to that the joint controls and alignments, the control of uke's breath/diaphragm and other factors, and it's downright scary.

Imagine the uke attacking with full-force intent, and nage acting on it with full force.

I have only experienced this kind of application within the context of a dojo setting, but -- speaking from first-hand experience -- even in a controlled setting, receiving any kind of attack from someone who has this kind of training and body method, can be extremely shocky, paralyzing and disorienting. It can even be damaging, in some unfortunate accident situations - concussions, ruptures, bone breaks, and worse. And that's from training at a moderate degree of intensity or even lighter. People training this way have to have consummate control to prevent injuries. Perhaps that's why many systems of internal arts adopted very ritualistic ways of training -- the stiff-looking strikes, prescribed number of steps in, the "response" and pin... It is easier to manage this stuff in a choreographed setup than in more of an open approach such as a more ramped-up version of what's being demonstrated in these two clips.

Anyway, just a couple of thoughts there.

[Evisceration]

@ cady I believe you are right on the introductory part these techniques are low to mid level in my opinion but an effective demonstration of that art. I have to disagree with the "internal force". I train in daito ryu I can do many techniques at about a similar skill level as the first video I have never had a feeling of internal energy directed at an opponent either in a dojo or in the real world often times it is when im not trying ,distracted ,or dont care when my trchniques work best ( we all have bad trainibg days) . I think that the techniques can be so pefect it gives an illusion of a mystical force which most times defies logic. At the same time if you look at it from a more scientific approach in quantum mechanics our peception/ obsevation of an event can alter its outcome hence believing a technique will work can make it work

[saljaber]

Here's some recent footage of Muhammad sensei teaching in Atlanta, Ga, Taikai in Pennsylvania and Maryland. I can assure you that what I and others are feeling in this video is real.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ffU-9leKZE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGbtcDkYJhM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nvn35SUo5G4