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Thread: Horikawa Kodo Demonstrations of Aiki-no-Jutsu

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    Default Horikawa Kodo Demonstrations of Aiki-no-Jutsu

    Not many clips of Horikawa (founder, Daito-ryu Kodokai) floating around, but here's one that shows him teaching and demonstrating aiki-age and aiki-sage slowly, plus some demos of him expressing aiki through weapons.

    Cady Goldfield

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    I think this thread would be better placed in the Koryu Bujutsu- Aikijujutsu forum since this is pretty orthodox Daito-ryu training he is doing. This forum section "Historical Perspectives" might be a bit redundant with the aikijujutsu and aikido forums already existing.
    Christopher Covington

    Daito-ryu aikijujutsu
    Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage-ryu heiho

    All views expressed here are my own and don't necessarily represent the views of the arts I practice, the teachers and people I train with or any dojo I train in.

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    While certainly there is overlap, I see this clip as a demonstration of one way in which aiki was interpreted and practiced by an individual, and then his line of descendants. In this case, it is Horikawa and Kodokai. I'm looking for historic footage of comparable practices in China and other cultures as well. I would look past the vehicle in which the aiki is contained, and look at the aiki itself from a historical and cultural perspective.

    This forum is meant as a place where we can contrast and compare the different paths of development and evolution of internal training, and of how aiki has been manifested over time. As the "fossil record" of video footage is quite limited, I would like to archive, as best I can, historical films such as this one, as well as writings, in a place where materials from a variety of provenances -- not just Japan -- can be reviewed for their content. Then we can have discussions on how aiki, internal power and internal training practices have diverged and converged over time, as well as how they perhaps reflect their cultural context.
    Cady Goldfield

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    One thing that interests me about the contents of the above clip, is that Horikawa is giving a lesson to one of his students in the traditional way of transmitting an internal art. Historically, this form of teacher-to-student hands-on transmission was considered a requirement for gaining the full complement of internal skills. That's one of the reasons why only a relative handful of descendants in any given lineage were able to gain those skills.

    There are some contemporary internal systems. both in and outside of Japan, that sought (and have created) a way around person-to-person transmission by parsing out the body method into a series of solo training exercises that will instill the same abilities. While partner training is still required to develop the sensitivity to an opponent's intent, and to hone the skills of feeling, sticking, and applying aiki and IP on another body, the actual development of aiki and IP can be learned by as many people who are willing to take on and dedicate themselves to the solo training. I think this is, in part, what Sagawa Yukiyoshi was trying to tell his students.
    Cady Goldfield

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cady Goldfield View Post
    While certainly there is overlap, I see this clip as a demonstration of one way in which aiki was interpreted and practiced by an individual, and then his line of descendants. In this case, it is Horikawa and Kodokai. I'm looking for historic footage of comparable practices in China and other cultures as well. I would look past the vehicle in which the aiki is contained, and look at the aiki itself from a historical and cultural perspective.

    This forum is meant as a place where we can contrast and compare the different paths of development and evolution of internal training, and of how aiki has been manifested over time. As the "fossil record" of video footage is quite limited, I would like to archive, as best I can, historical films such as this one, as well as writings, in a place where materials from a variety of provenances -- not just Japan -- can be reviewed for their content. Then we can have discussions on how aiki, internal power and internal training practices have diverged and converged over time, as well as how they perhaps reflect their cultural context.
    I agree with Chris. IMO, you are making huge assumptions about what Horikawa and his students are doing when comparing them with completely different traditions. For example, your comments on the IP concepts forum referring to various people doing "aiki no jutsu" and then attempting to equate this to what Horikawa is doing is just wrongalthough there are some superficial overlaps. They are doing different things. IMO, if you wish to analyse what various martial artists from different traditions are doing based on your experience/opinion of "Internal power" then have at it, but attempting to find gokui-level teachings of a specific tradition (in this case daito ryu aiki no jutsu) across other completely disparate traditions gives people a completely wrong idea of said tradition and its training methods.

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    Until you know the experiences of others and why their own opinions are formed in such a way as they are, you can't presume to know whether they are making huge assumptions.
    Again, look at the aiki, the body method -- not the stylistic vehicle in which it is borne -- and we are talking about a universal set of mechanisms, concepts and principles that transcend an individual style or system. Do you think that Japan invented IP and aiki? Why should we assume that only an isolated, small group of individuals possessed, and possess, this skill set?

    Perhaps it is too soon for this kind of discussion. In another five years or a decade, I believe that the picture may change somewhat.
    Cady Goldfield

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    Hi Cady,

    Since this is your rodeo I'll leave it to you what you want to include and what not to include here. This video just feels redundant to me considering we have one of the best aikijujutsu forums on the net and it is so well moderated. But that is just my limited opinion; worth what you pay for it.

    My understanding is a lot of the discussions found years ago here and more recently over at Aikiweb have been to establish a standard definition of what aiki is and means to the people on the quest to find it. Maybe something to help folks out in this forum is to have a sticky with the established definition of "Aiki" as it is used here. It would make things much easier than reading hundreds of pages of posts over at Aikiweb. It might also help foster some dialogue as well.

    Best regards,
    Christopher Covington

    Daito-ryu aikijujutsu
    Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage-ryu heiho

    All views expressed here are my own and don't necessarily represent the views of the arts I practice, the teachers and people I train with or any dojo I train in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cady Goldfield View Post
    Until you know the experiences of others and why their own opinions are formed in such a way as they are, you can't presume to know whether they are making huge assumptions.
    Again, look at the aiki, the body method -- not the stylistic vehicle in which it is borne -- and we are talking about a universal set of mechanisms, concepts and principles that transcend an individual style or system. Do you think that Japan invented IP and aiki? Why should we assume that only an isolated, small group of individuals possessed, and possess, this skill set?

    Perhaps it is too soon for this kind of discussion. In another five years or a decade, I believe that the picture may change somewhat.
    You can presume if comments and videos illustrating said comments are mistaken. As I have said, if you want to comment on videos according to your understanding of "IP" away you go. However, aiki no jutsu is a term specific to Daito ryu and is an inner teaching and has a specific method of transmission and this includes body usage and concepts.You seem to have an opinion of what it is and comment on videos to fit that worldview . IMO "IP" covers a vast range of rather disparate body usage and training methods, and attempting to reduce it down to a few general principles (while understandable) is ultimately mistaken.

    And why do you assume that I think Japan invented IP and aiki?.

    Anyway, as I have said, if you wish to post on Internal power or Internal strength, feel free, but if you are going to comment on the inner teachings of specific ryu, you can't be surprised if practicioners chime in.

    As Chris said, the best solution to this would be to leave discussion on Daito ryu specific terms and methods to the forum already dedicated to it, and use this forum as a discussion on Internal principles and Internal Power.

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    Good morning Christopher,

    I am co-moderator of this group of forums, with Cady. In fact, it was I who suggested we open a set of forums on internal arts and I glad that Cady, who has much experiences volunteered to moderate. From where I stand, parts of the clip show pretty orthodox aikido and I myself have been in the same position, but with Saito Morihiro Sensei as partner.

    Best wishes,

    PAG

    Quote Originally Posted by Kendoguy9 View Post
    I think this thread would be better placed in the Koryu Bujutsu- Aikijujutsu forum since this is pretty orthodox Daito-ryu training he is doing. This forum section "Historical Perspectives" might be a bit redundant with the aikijujutsu and aikido forums already existing.
    Peter Goldsbury,
    Forum Administrator,
    Hiroshima, Japan

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    Hi Owen,
    I use "aiki-no-jutsu" because it's a familiar term that encapsulates the same physical method and concept in other internal arts from other cultures, and because it's the use of Japanese terminology on a Japanese MA site.
    We could create another "neutral" vocabulary, but IMO that would make things even more confusing.

    The power/connection body method is not restricted or proprietary to just one art, system or even country. What is proprietary are the martial techniques that have been created to be vehicles for that power, and the various specific drills that the generations of teachers have devised for training the body method.

    Here is Chen stylist Liu Cheng-De doing his version of some of the internal concepts that Horikawa was demonstrating:



    The Chinese internal martial arts describe this in various ways, such as the directing of "peng" force upward or downward, but these become just differences in vocabulary for what comes down to the same physical processes, from manipulation of structure, generation of force from complementary/opposing forces, and connection to the opponent. One can call it by the names or terms of a number of sources, but a rose is still a rose, whatever the name ascribed to it.
    Last edited by Cady Goldfield; 8th December 2013 at 00:49.
    Cady Goldfield

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    Hi Chris,
    Thanks for the comments. Your suggestion of a sticky post defining the meaning of "aiki" as it is being used here, is a helpful one, and we can work on developing one for this site.

    As I posted initially about the creation of this new section, internal power and "aiki" (or "aiqi" if you use Chinese...) are not the sole property of Aikijujutsu, and I believe that we should open up the field for broader discussions of those concepts and skill sets, not limited to the way they're expressed by Daito-ryu and its derivatives. There will be some overlap as a result, but I don't see that as an issue.

    The clip of Horikawa is not, IMO, redundant, nor will be any other historic clips from other internal arts (that could fit into any of E-Budo's other forums) because this particular forum is one I see being the basis for archives where videos, articles, and other media on the myriad facets of internal training and aiki/aiqi/your-name-for-it-here can be consolidated for future reference.
    Cady Goldfield

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    Glad I could be of some help. That's why they pay me the big bucks around here!
    Christopher Covington

    Daito-ryu aikijujutsu
    Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage-ryu heiho

    All views expressed here are my own and don't necessarily represent the views of the arts I practice, the teachers and people I train with or any dojo I train in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cady Goldfield View Post
    Hi Owen,
    I use "aiki-no-jutsu" because it's a familiar term that encapsulates the same physical method and concept in other internal arts from other cultures, and because it's the use of Japanese terminology on a Japanese MA site.
    We could create another "neutral" vocabulary, but IMO that would make things even more confusing.

    The power/connection body method is not restricted or proprietary to just one art, system or even country. What is proprietary are the martial techniques that have been created to be vehicles for that power, and the various specific drills that the generations of teachers have devised for training the body method.

    Here is Chen stylist Liu Cheng-De doing his version of some of the internal concepts that Horikawa was demonstrating:



    The Chinese internal martial arts describe this in various ways, such as the directing of "peng" force upward or downward, but these become just differences in vocabulary for what comes down to the same physical processes, from manipulation of structure, generation of force from complementary/opposing forces, and connection to the opponent. One can call it by the names or terms of a number of sources, but a rose is still a rose, whatever the name ascribed to it.
    Well, looking at that clip, it's obvious (to me anyway) that you are comparing roses to lilies, but I've said my piece, and I don't want to keep arguing about this. In closing, I would strongly advise anyone interesting in learning about aiki to invest the time and effort to train under a Daito Ryu instructor with lineage and in the proper manner before coming to conclusions about "aiki" Or, if it is your "path",train under a lineage stylist in the proper manner before reaching similar conclusions about CMA. There are very good reasons for lineage and training methods.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cady Goldfield View Post
    Hi Chris,


    As I posted initially about the creation of this new section, internal power and "aiki" (or "aiqi" if you use Chinese...)

    The Chinese (Mandarin) is heqi, not "aiqi." Just a point of clarification - but that was probably a mistake that got missed. Still. as Confucius said, getting words right is important, especially when setting up a forum as a resource, and clearly Chinese terminology is being used.

    FWIW, having in former life studied Chinese through university (modern and classical), studied taiji with a teacher who very much had these skills in China - though only for a short time - and with several others since, the terms jing and gong were typically used for these kinds of things, not "heqi."
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hissho View Post
    The Chinese (Mandarin) is heqi, not "aiqi." Just a point of clarification - but that was probably a mistake that got missed. Still. as Confucius said, getting words right is important, especially when setting up a forum as a resource, and clearly Chinese terminology is being used.

    FWIW, having in former life studied Chinese through university (modern and classical), studied taiji with a teacher who very much had these skills in China - though only for a short time - and with several others since, the terms jing and gong were typically used for these kinds of things, not "heqi."
    Yep. Thanks Kit. Sometimes bouncing around between Japanese and Chinese terminology results in mishaps, mainly in the form of hybridized words...

    To address an earlier issue, trying to find a universal vocabulary to encompass the same concepts and principles found in the internal arts of different countries, is complicated. Maybe the best way to go about it when discussing, say, Chinese and Japanese arts, would be to use the (familiar) Japanese term and then provide the Chinese equivalent, or vice-versa.
    IMO, it doesn't make sense to insist that certain terms not be used to describe something outside a specific art, even if that something is the exact counterpart in another art. Language should not be proprietary if it helps clarify meaning.
    Cady Goldfield

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