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Thread: "You fight like you train and train like you fight" OR DO YOU?

  1. #1
    Gareth Del Monte Guest

    Default "You fight like you train and train like you fight" OR DO YOU?

    Hello.
    We all understand "you fight like you train and you train like you fight"because it is the truth.
    If you are familiar with Hicks Law you will understand that the less options one has to choose from,the faster their decision and reaction time will be.
    Most here practice in the Traditional Martial Arts or even Koryu.
    Many cross train due to the modern violence experienced in our more contemporary society.
    My question is about the choices we make and how can we make them under stress?
    Eg. If you train in Aikijujutsu religiously and only,then would you not have more of a chance of combative success over someone who trains in Aikijujutsu as well as modern Combatives,KravMaga etc.
    When you get the adrenal dump,experience auditory exclusion,loss of fine motor skills etc.you cannot rationally decide to suddenly change from one style to the next.You just do what you do.Less would be better.
    "I fear the man who throws the same punch 1000 times over the man who throws the a 1000 different punches 1 time"(Sorry for butchering that!)
    I am not an instructor of any Arts or Systems,so I am just curious on how this approach of cross training works from a mental and physical point of view?
    Thank you
    Gareth.

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    If one had to choose which option to use (which implies conscious decision-making), too many options might be a hindering factor; but if one instinctively takes the correct action -- without "choosing" -- then I don't think it applies.

    Since one "fights like one trains," the more varied the training, up to a point, the more varied and appropriate the fighting method(s) will be. To a man who has only ever used a hammer, the only response to any problem will be to pound it; but someone who has regularly used all the tools in a tool bag will be more likely to grab the best tool for the job when the time comes.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

  3. #3
    Gareth Del Monte Guest

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    Hi Brian.
    You are right."If all you have is a hammer then everything looks like a nail"
    I was just wondering when how much is too much?
    We often see Martial Arts Instructors who have various Gradings in multiple disciplines.
    They also train in more modern systems as well as the usage of modern tactics.
    I think my question is just,when is it too much?
    I guess this will however always fall into the lap of the student,their individual goals and or needs for self defense,eg.Military,Law Enforcement or Civilian.
    It will always be looking for the correct school that caters as closely as possible to your direct needs based on your individual circumstance.
    Thank you,
    Gareth.

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    I fear the man who throws the same punch 1000 times over the man who throws the a 1000 different punches 1 time"(Sorry for butchering that!)

    Actually, it is "I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times.
    The quote of 10,000 kicks is from Bruce Lee, and it was never to state to not train in as many things. He, himself, studied martial arts beyond styles, and studied/trained with martial artists from a variety.

    It means that it would be better to perfect one thing than to "incorrectly" or "needlessly" practice a lot "non-useful".

    Less would be better.
    Not so. The more one does, studies, and applies, the better one becomes

    Look at it this way, if you want to be a auto mechanic, would you just study or work only on brakes?

    The MORE you learn or do, APPLIES to a variety of skill one can achieve


    As for You fight like you train and train like you fight-
    Let's examine the first portion;
    "You fight like you train"
    What if someone trains in self defense, which it is not training to fight, but to survive
    Martial arts is NOT ONLY about fighting. In modern society, it is better to have common sense and prevent a physical altercation.

    The second portion:
    "Train like you fight"
    This is a dumbfounded statement to be used in reciprocal
    No one can train like they fight. Training, no matter what, is still in a closed/vacuum environment. It will not prepare for EVERY situation and/or variable

    Anyway, just my 2 cents
    Richard Scardina

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  6. #5
    Gareth Del Monte Guest

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    Hello.
    My apologies for butchering the quotation.
    In your analogy you say that it is like being an auto-mechanic on learning on how to fix the breaks.
    That's a good metaphor.
    What about the jack of all trades and master of none quotation.
    Yes,I am pretty good at fixing cars,but in this day in age the most prominent problem with cars might happen to be the breaks,carburetor and radiator.
    So instead of spending precious hours on learning about the combustible engine and other intricate parts of the vehicle,shouldn't you focus on the problems that are most common and then expand from there as opposed to working backwards.
    People do not throw Karate punches,nor do they lurch forward and grab your lapel while they basically allow you to put on a kote geashi or other locking technique.
    People do not kick for the head,like in Taekwondo,nor do we walk and fight with Swords,Spears,Staff or Sickles.
    Therefore I can be a black belt in Aikido,Karate,Taekwondo and Kenjutsu,but now I start adding situational awareness,the use of modern weaponry,firearms,tactical folders,collapsible batons,pepper spray etc.as well as a no mess no fuss Martial Arts System.
    Some of the modern systems are so complex themselves like Krav Maga where you learn 100 different methods of gun disarms as opposed to maybe 3 which can be used on the the 3 levels of your body with either hand(left or right etc)
    It seems like "too many cooks in kitchen spoil the broth"
    I am sorry if I am going a bit off point.
    Gareth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth Del Monte View Post
    Hello.
    My apologies for butchering the quotation.
    No apology necessary as long as you understand the quote's meaning


    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth Del Monte View Post
    In your analogy you say that it is like being an auto-mechanic on learning on how to fix the breaks.
    That's a good metaphor.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth Del Monte View Post
    What about the jack of all trades and master of none quotation.
    Think of martial arts like a trade (like auto mechanics) One should learn everything pertaining to that trade

    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth Del Monte View Post
    Yes,I am pretty good at fixing cars,but in this day in age the most prominent problem with cars might happen to be the breaks,carburetor and radiator.
    So instead of spending precious hours on learning about the combustible engine and other intricate parts of the vehicle,shouldn't you focus on the problems that are most common and then expand from there as opposed to working backwards.
    This is not correct thinking. In order to be fully applicable, one has to understand all aspects. Knowing about the workings of the engine, is part of knowing what to apply for whatever breakdown. True, some things have more hours spent than others, but the knowledge of everything (within a subject) will have one with applied skills.



    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth Del Monte View Post
    People do not throw Karate punches,nor do they lurch forward and grab your lapel while they basically allow you to put on a kote geashi or other locking technique.
    People do not kick for the head,like in Taekwondo,nor do we walk and fight with Swords,Spears,Staff or Sickles.
    You are looking upon traditional methods in strict comparison to modern. This is incorrect as well. The type of Karate punches, kicks, blocks,etc., are not meant to be used in actual combat. These are for developing other aspects like distance, timing, balance, etc. As for kicking to the head, this is the sport aspect of TKD. I had two TKD instructors over a span, one was strictly sport, the other had great methods and kicks were not to the head. Do not make error into lumping everything into one basket. As for swords, spears, staffs, sickles, etc., I had practiced Kendo for a little while, and a skilled practitioner could use many of the same sword-like methods while using a small cudgel (like wise to spears-staff) Stop thinking of how archaic the device is because you haven't truly studied what other applications beyond what you see



    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth Del Monte View Post
    Therefore I can be a black belt in Aikido,Karate,Taekwondo and Kenjutsu,but now I start adding situational awareness,the use of modern weaponry,firearms,tactical folders,collapsible batons,pepper spray etc.as well as a no mess no fuss Martial Arts System.
    If you are doing these, this would almost be like the "Jack of All Trades"

    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth Del Monte View Post
    Some of the modern systems are so complex themselves like Krav Maga where you learn 100 different methods of gun disarms as opposed to maybe 3 which can be used on the the 3 levels of your body with either hand(left or right etc)
    From this statement, it clearly shows that you did not understand the 10,000 kicks quote.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth Del Monte View Post
    It seems like "too many cooks in kitchen spoil the broth"
    Not really. Where do you think a cook learned to make a broth...by understanding and learning from other cooks

    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth Del Monte View Post
    I am sorry if I am going a bit off point.
    Gareth.
    I would say that you are a anti-traditionalist looking for avenues to dismiss and close things, which a strict comparison to be biased for your own sake
    Richard Scardina

  8. #7
    Gareth Del Monte Guest

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    Hello.
    I can agree with much of your counter comments to what I have said.
    I am not an anti-traditionalist with some type of Modern Agenda.(I practice and have practiced Traditional MA since I was young)
    This is why I am sorry that I went off topic.
    My original thread was based on learning a Traditional Martial Arts or Koryu Arts which is an admirable thing to do.
    However many top level instructors and students practice modern combat applications for a modern setting as well.
    Great(in theory)
    Why?Because we always believe that we never have enough of something and keep adding to our repertoire.
    If I have spent much of my time reacting to certain attacks in a specific way,it finds its way into my motor memory.
    If I then learn a different way for"Combat" or whatever you like to call it,then I have to override my initial instincts that I have spent years developing in order to accommodate this.Fine.
    When I am attacked and I receive an adrenal dump and all the things that go with that,then I will basically react in a certain way(the way in which I have trained)
    My point being if I have trained in a traditional art,GREAT,then I can react with that art.
    If I train in a Traditional Art for the Dojo,but a Modern System for the street,my reaction time will be a bit slower.
    I understand that the underlying principles in Old and New systems overlap each other.
    My question pertains less to the Art that you use and more to "is less more?" and how the mind works in these terrifying situations?
    Thank you,
    Gareth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth Del Monte View Post
    Hello.
    I can agree with much of your counter comments to what I have said.
    First off, please understand, I am not one to debate just for the sake of it. I put much time and effort in my responses (hence the responses to sections of your posts)



    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth Del Monte View Post
    I am not an anti-traditionalist with some type of Modern Agenda.(I practice and have practiced Traditional MA since I was young)This is why I am sorry that I went off topic.
    Apology for me going off topic as well-moving on>>>



    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth Del Monte View Post
    My original thread was based on learning a Traditional Martial Arts or Koryu Arts which is an admirable thing to do.
    Just as long as there is the equal understanding that with these, there are some things that have good and/or not so good purposes. A balance



    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth Del Monte View Post
    However many top level instructors and students practice modern combat applications for a modern setting as well.
    Great(in theory)
    Why?Because we always believe that we never have enough of something and keep adding to our repertoire.
    Well, this would almost come close to the misused quote "Jack of All Trades"






    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth Del Monte View Post
    If I have spent much of my time reacting to certain attacks in a specific way,it finds its way into my motor memory.
    If I then learn a different way for"Combat" or whatever you like to call it,then I have to override my initial instincts that I have spent years developing in order to accommodate this.Fine.
    Not quite sure what you are trying to convey, but I can say, not everything will go "according to plan-training"



    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth Del Monte View Post
    When I am attacked and I receive an adrenal dump and all the things that go with that,then I will basically react in a certain way(the way in which I have trained)
    When I started martial arts, I was also young. When I got into my teens, to young adult, physical confrontations happened more. People tend to over elaborate on their confrontations (as all wins-victories) which in truth, one has to loose in order to learn-to a degree. Also, after having many,(win or loose) this becomes experience, and with experience, comes "less of a adrenal dump"



    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth Del Monte View Post
    My point being if I have trained in a traditional art,GREAT,then I can react with that art.
    Not quite sure what are you trying to convey




    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth Del Monte View Post
    If I train in a Traditional Art for the Dojo,but a Modern System for the street,my reaction time will be a bit slower.
    Not quite sure what are you trying to convey


    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth Del Monte View Post
    I understand that the underlying principles in Old and New systems overlap each other.
    My question pertains less to the Art that you use and more to "is less more?" and how the mind works in these terrifying situations?
    Thank you,
    Gareth.
    I guess you haven't understood-"Less is not more"

    Let's review;

    If someone is a Carpenter that builds homes. That carpenter will know, not only working with tools of the trade, but they will also understand all aspects of the build from plumbing, electrical, etc This is valuable information (within the subject of their trade) they can use
    Last edited by Richard Scardina; 2nd February 2014 at 09:50.
    Richard Scardina

  11. #9
    Gareth Del Monte Guest

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    Hello Mr.Scardina.
    I am glad you are not the debating type,because I was dreading that this might become some long drawn out thread(I am not the debating type either,just looking for answers)
    I really do take to heart what you have said and definitely agree with much of what is said to the point of having to look at myself,my lack of knowledge and own hands on experience.I appreciate your comments as they have definitely helped me to grow by questioning my own thoughts and beliefs on this topic.It has definitely made me take a harder look into cross training and trying to see the bigger picture,rather than try to isolate certain components of these strategies.
    Keep Well,
    Gareth.

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    Gareth -

    You are very gracious.

    You might check out http://www.forcescience.org/ for more information and specific research related to your questions as to how your mind may work under stress. You are definitely in the ball park.

    There CAN be a problem with training too many diverse things. This has in fact cost lives due to specific concepts having to do with motor programming, task fixation, hand confusion, etc. Less sometimes IS more.

    But other times its not and having more options makes you more adaptable and flexible. Its not that simple and its not a one size fits all answer.


    My personal advice would be to a) not think of martial arts as a venue for self protection training. Most martial arts are relevant to self protection, but at about the same level of crossover that fitness training offers. Indeed you'd be better off in some cases doing a fitness program than martial arts.

    b) Don't think of self protection as purely "survival" training. Mostly it won't be a survival situation and the techniques and mindset required
    there are inappropriate for lower level encounters. This is one reason that cross training and having other skillsets can be important.

    c) Remember its more in how you train - are you practicing with realistic self defense situations, dynamics, and stress? Or are you practicing combat sports or ancient battle skills with a lot of assumptions and little regard for to what is or isnt practical for self protection needs.
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

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    Gareth Del Monte Guest

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    Hello.
    Thank you very much for the link you have provided.It is fantastic and I would not have found it without your help.Thank you!
    I agree with you that not one size fits all.Unfortunately I have the personality that tends to think in Black or white,yes or no(if you get the gist of what I am saying)
    I couldn't agree more that a physically fit individual is always more prepared for whatever type of altercation may occur(if it even comes to that) as well as being physically fit seems to increase a person's general state of alertness and increases one's levels of concentration for extended periods of time which is also a good quality to have as it generally makes one more aware of their surroundings etc.
    Also as mentioned by yourself,how you train is indeed probably the most relevant part to a "force on force"situation,or any kind of altercation be it verbal de-escalation or whatever be the case.
    I guess that is in fact where the "You fight like you train and Train like you fight" adage actually comes into play.
    Thank you for sharing this information with me.I will definitely take it to heart!
    Stay Safe,
    Gareth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth Del Monte View Post
    I guess that is in fact where the "You fight like you train and Train like you fight" adage actually comes into play.
    Not really. I am still at odds with this.

    The word "fight" seems to suggest that every confrontation has to be concluded with a actual fight.

    "You prepare in training to be trained to prepare" may suggest more of survival in modern situations


    BTW-Welcome to the forum
    Richard Scardina

  17. #13
    Gareth Del Monte Guest

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    Hello again,
    Thank you,its good to be here!
    Stay safe,
    Gareth.

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    Gareth

    Sure thing. And there is indeed a lot of truth to "train as you'll fight, fight as you train."

    'Force on Force' is actually a training methodology, the 'use of force' is probably what you intended. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions regarding the Force Science link.
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

  19. #15
    Gareth Del Monte Guest

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    Hello,
    Thank you so much.
    I will definitely PM you if I have any questions about the Site.
    I really appreciate the offer!
    Keep well,
    Gareth.

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