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Thread: "You fight like you train and train like you fight" OR DO YOU?

  1. #16
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    Gareth

    Please explain how "modern" violence or a "modern setting" is in any fashion "different" than violence in other times.

    Other than firearms of course........a punch is a punch, a club is club and a knife is a knife.

    In terms of mindset etc. I would say its debatable that we have all much on the folks of times past. Sure we have far more advanced neuro-linguistic programming and fight science.....but times were far more violent back in the day and many more people likely had direct personal experience with violence.

    Its one thing to train it and learn it.....quite something else to confront it personally and frequently.......which would help cope with the various physiological/pysch problems.

    By way of a small scale comparison---in the States many kids have gown up in a "Zero Tolerance" environment for physical altercations........whereas 25 years ago MOST kids had at least "some" experience in school-yard punch-ups or physical altercations........heck its why many of us started training in the first place.
    Take my nephew for example---the kid is 16 years old and has never been a fight in his life.......which is actually a GOOD thing.......but without any practical experience with the ad dump the fear etc. how well is he likely to do?

    In any case I'm not sure that the assumption "modern/contemporary " violence is all that accurate--other than firearms of course.
    Chris Thomas

    "While people are entitled to their illusions, they are not entitled to a limitless enjoyment of them and they are not entitled to impose them upon others."

    "Team Cynicism" MVP 2005-2006
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  3. #17
    Gareth Del Monte Guest

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    Hello.
    You sound like you have more knowledge and experience than me,so I could just end up talking myself into a flogging.
    By the way,as you bring up your country and violence amongst youth,I live in a country where violence crosses all boards and it is not uncommon at all to see youths routinely stab and kill each other in "school yard settings".
    My original post and what I was trying to understand basically had to do with "less is more"
    I tried to point out that learning Traditional Arts such as Aikijujutsu for example by itself for whatever reason you choose,might in fact be better than learning Aikijutsu and a "modern Combative System"
    When an assault goes down,you only have so many options to choose from.Theoretically the less you have to choose from,the faster your reaction time will be.
    Thus having training in multiple disciplines old or new can cause problems as there are too many chooses to be made in a stressful environment.
    With regards to Traditional Martial Arts and Violence,the difference is theoretically there is none.
    I am not a Historian,but I would imagine that the violence experienced in 1500 Japan was done so amongst trained warriors.
    Very much like violence in warfare today is done by trained warriors,insurgents or 3rd party aggressors.
    I do not know what the civilian population was like in Sengoku Japan,but I would expect that they were not that violent towards each other(although I could be wrong)
    However statistically today as a civilian you are very likely to be raped,assaulted,murdered,robbed etc.
    In don't live in the United States so I cannot speak for your Country.South Africa is pretty horrific.
    I am also not sure how many Japanese women were victims of some form of sexual assault back in the day.If you keep up with the times,nowadays its pretty much 1 in 4 or so.
    Thank you,
    Gareth.

  4. #18
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    Gareth

    Sorry if it came across that way......I just wanted to discuss it.

    In the States violent crime of all sorts/overall has been falling for decades--although its often not reported that way. Most folks--depending on where they live are statistically unlikely to encounter much violence of any sort.

    On the other hand depending on where you live--many people have easy and ready access to firearms--which now that think about might account---in part--for both the lack of violence in places and the high level of shootings. When everyone is armed....or likely to be....then you better be pretty peaceful or ready to shoot.

    I suspect you are correct in terms of the potential danger of having to run through 1000's of POTENTIAL "moves" to get to the one you want to use.
    Chris Thomas

    "While people are entitled to their illusions, they are not entitled to a limitless enjoyment of them and they are not entitled to impose them upon others."

    "Team Cynicism" MVP 2005-2006
    Currently on "Injured/Reserve" list due to a scathing Sarcasm pile-up.

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  6. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth Del Monte View Post
    Hello.

    By the way,as you bring up your country and violence amongst youth,I live in a country where violence crosses all boards and it is not uncommon at all to see youths routinely stab and kill each other in "school yard settings".
    And which country is this?



    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth Del Monte View Post
    My original post and what I was trying to understand basically had to do with "less is more"
    Incorrect. I gave examples why one should learn as much as possbile



    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth Del Monte View Post
    I tried to point out that learning Traditional Arts such as Aikijujutsu for example by itself for whatever reason you choose,might in fact be better than learning Aikijutsu and a "modern Combative System"
    Dont understand this


    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth Del Monte View Post
    When an assault goes down,you only have so many options to choose from.Theoretically the less you have to choose from,the faster your reaction time will be.
    When a assault "goes down" there is no time to "choose" Either you Win or Loose and hopefully you live on to train in other methods adding "MORE" to your skills

    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth Del Monte View Post
    Thus having training in multiple disciplines old or new can cause problems as there are too many chooses to be made in a stressful environment.
    Incorrect. The more you study, the better your skill sets


    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth Del Monte View Post
    With regards to Traditional Martial Arts and Violence,the difference is theoretically there is none.
    I am not a Historian,but I would imagine that the violence experienced in 1500 Japan was done so amongst trained warriors.
    Not totally correct. Warriors often slaughtered civilians


    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth Del Monte View Post
    Very much like violence in warfare today is done by trained warriors,insurgents or 3rd party aggressors.
    ???



    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth Del Monte View Post
    I do not know what the civilian population was like in Sengoku Japan,but I would expect that they were not that violent towards each other(although I could be wrong)
    This is such a statement of contradiction. if you don't know something, then why would you state what you "expect"


    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth Del Monte View Post
    However statistically today as a civilian you are very likely to be raped,assaulted,murdered,robbed etc.
    Nonsense. It depends on your culture and especially the environment/area you reside

    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth Del Monte View Post
    I am also not sure how many Japanese women were victims of some form of sexual assault back in the day.If you keep up with the times,nowadays its pretty much 1 in 4 or so.
    Where are you getting your information?
    Richard Scardina

  7. #20
    Gareth Del Monte Guest

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    Hello Mr Thomas.
    You do not need to apologize for anything.
    I thought you raised some good points and offered some awesome insights,especially with regards to how many of our children today don't get involved in schoolyard fights,which in turn might be the case why I believe the violence amongst the youth is more lethal.
    In the old days people would get into schoolyard fistfights.Usually it would end there.Nowadays where schools have metal detectors and security guards at their entrances,if you challenge certain individuals it could very well lead to you getting stabbed or shot after school.In my own opinion and experience.
    Keep well.
    Gareth.
    Mr Scardina,I live in Cape Town South Africa which if you actually bothered to take the time to read what I had written instead of cherry pick things to critique you may have seen that I mentioned this in my thread that I wrote.
    Its pointless you jumping back into the argument now and rehashing your opinion on the same points you did originally as I was explaining to the individual who posted the new comment what I had said in my original post(which we discussed since then).
    Yes Bushi slaughtered civilians.And American Soldiers,PMC's and CIA drones kill thousands of innocent people in warfare today wholesale and with little or no provocation,so In this case you ARE correct.
    A warrior,a trained individual sanctioned by their country to conduct warfare against the combatants of another country.An insurgent,an individual who carries out combative action who has no allegiance to a country but possibly to a paramilitary or terrorist group.A 3rd party aggressor would basically be an opportunist who has not been designated or prepared to conduct violent action,but may decide to do so based on time,situation and opportunity.Sorry,this is off the top of my head so feel free to Google it for better definitions.
    I live in CT,South Africa so I base my opinions on this environment.(Maybe venture outside your comfort zone of only looking at your own country and look at the culture and statistics of my country to understand this.)
    I do stand corrected on my comment of how many women are sexually assaulted in their lifetime.It is difficult to know as much of it is unreported.
    Than you,
    Gareth.

  8. #21
    Gareth Del Monte Guest

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    Lets take a police officer who might be issued his department sidearm a Beretta 92FS for example and is required to shoot a certain amount of rounds through it and pass various tests in order for him deemed to be fit to be able to carry this weapon.
    This police officer does so and therefore carries his Beretta on patrol.
    He enjoys shooting but he prefers his GLOCK 17.
    He shoots his privately owned GLOCK 17 all the time,with thousands of rounds going through it and is even a National Competitor is competitions like IPSC for example.
    The Beretta and the GLOCK ar both great weapons,roughly the same size and caliber.They do however operate slightly differently.The GLOCK has no external safeties and has the same trigger pull on every stroke while the Beretta has an external safety and has a double action trigger meaning you have an incredibly long initial pull to cock the hammer.(Not Rocket Science)
    Our Cop then walks into a convenience store and is faced by 2 armed robbers.He draws his weapon quickly and aims accurately with means to use lethal force(this is done in the flash of an eye as he has done this thousands of times)Unfortunately when he pulls the trigger it locks and won't fire the gun!Malfunction?NO!He realizes in this "fog of war"that this is not his trusty GLOCK 17, but rather his designated combat pistol which operates slightly differently.He then has to work the weapon accordingly while only getting more stressed by having rounds fired down range at him.Everyone will jump in at this point and tell me that it is really not that difficult to suddenly go from one platform to another.Then WHY is it you read about these situations a fair amount of the time.
    Yes,more is better.If he could fire thousands of rounds all day through the Beretta and then thousands all day through the GLOCK it would work out better.Unfortunately this is impossible as we all live under time and financial restraints coupled with our own likes,dislikes and preferences whether it be Firearms,Martial Arts or the Cereal we eat!
    My point of THIS ENTIRE POST INITIALLY was would it theoretically not make more sense that our cop buddy who was issued his Beretta carried the same weapons and shot it in his free time as much as he did the GLOCK,(and instead of the GLOCK)and would this not have set up for a more victorious outcome?
    I know that every Traditional Martial Artist,Modern Martial Artist,Gun Nut and 13 year old who has played Call of Duty on their XBOX has an opinion on this,so I would really love to hear your thoughts if you believe this to be flawed logic so that I can amend my thinking based on your personal experience.
    Thank you,
    Gareth.

  9. #22
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    Gareth

    You are exactly on the right track, and this is the kind of thing Force Science researches....it has cost cops like you describe their lives.

    The human mind and body are really no different in 'combat' than they were hundreds, and thousands, of years ago. Technology has changed, and our understanding of how we mesh with it - or don't - is becoming more important in modern terms. That would be the main difference. Little things like weapon safeties, like holster retention devices, like magazine pouches, like where you carry your tools and have the most repetitions ingrained can all make a huge difference.
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

  10. #23
    Gareth Del Monte Guest

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    Hello.
    Thank you so much for your informative reply.
    I really appreciate the knowledge shared,and the points made about our minds being the same today as it was many years ago really intrigues me.Its basically the technology that we have to adapt to.
    I also really appreciated in an earlier post when you mentioned the importance of the context of training over method trained in(I am sorry if I got that wrong,but I think that was the gist of it)
    Thank you so much and keep well,
    Gareth.

  11. #24
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    Ok, It took me a little while to respond due to working more at work

    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth Del Monte View Post
    Lets take a police officer who might be issued his department sidearm a Beretta 92FS for example and is required to shoot a certain amount of rounds through it and pass various tests in order for him deemed to be fit to be able to carry this weapon.
    This police officer does so and therefore carries his Beretta on patrol.
    He enjoys shooting but he prefers his GLOCK 17.
    He shoots his privately owned GLOCK 17 all the time,with thousands of rounds going through it and is even a National Competitor is competitions like IPSC for example.
    The Beretta and the GLOCK ar both great weapons,roughly the same size and caliber.They do however operate slightly differently.The GLOCK has no external safeties and has the same trigger pull on every stroke while the Beretta has an external safety and has a double action trigger meaning you have an incredibly long initial pull to cock the hammer.(Not Rocket Science)
    Our Cop then walks into a convenience store and is faced by 2 armed robbers.He draws his weapon quickly and aims accurately with means to use lethal force(this is done in the flash of an eye as he has done this thousands of times)Unfortunately when he pulls the trigger it locks and won't fire the gun!Malfunction?NO!He realizes in this "fog of war"that this is not his trusty GLOCK 17, but rather his designated combat pistol which operates slightly differently.He then has to work the weapon accordingly while only getting more stressed by having rounds fired down range at him.Everyone will jump in at this point and tell me that it is really not that difficult to suddenly go from one platform to another.Then WHY is it you read about these situations a fair amount of the time.
    Yes,more is better.If he could fire thousands of rounds all day through the Beretta and then thousands all day through the GLOCK it would work out better.Unfortunately this is impossible as we all live under time and financial restraints coupled with our own likes,dislikes and preferences whether it be Firearms,Martial Arts or the Cereal we eat!
    My point of THIS ENTIRE POST INITIALLY was would it theoretically not make more sense that our cop buddy who was issued his Beretta carried the same weapons and shot it in his free time as much as he did the GLOCK,(and instead of the GLOCK)and would this not have set up for a more victorious outcome?
    I know that every Traditional Martial Artist,Modern Martial Artist,Gun Nut and 13 year old who has played Call of Duty on their XBOX has an opinion on this,so I would really love to hear your thoughts if you believe this to be flawed logic so that I can amend my thinking based on your personal experience.
    Thank you,
    Gareth.
    The police scenario you posted is along the lines of a relative of mine who had came out of the military (training and obtaining many high levels of marksmanship with the service pistol) who he had recently became a police officer.

    Of course, many LEOs are carrying the Glock 22

    And although he was familiar and skilled with his military side arm, he had to get familiar with the firearm his department had mandated
    And, with training, he became as accurate with this one as well

    This is what has to be considered;

    1.) If one already has vast training in firearms, and will start to practice with another unfamiliar, the transition isnt going to be that greatly different (if adequate training is performed). Basically, if you train with one type of pistol or rifle, you already have skillsets that only need other training/practice to acquire

    2.) Accuracy is not subject to the weapon, but also the individual.

    My relative had to draw his department weapon more than his personal weapon, and I asked him (long before this thread), will it impede his reaction to draw, fire, or effect the moment of truth...

    His simple reply....."proper training"

    This difference of firearm analogy does not hold to my total agreement.

    If I can drive a standard vehicle, I can drive a automatic one..the transition is easy via practice

    If one can drive a automatic vehicle, may not be so easy for them to drive a standard, the transition my be difficult-at first...but again, VIA PRACTICE, then can overcome

    After having great practice from either, I can drive a standard, get out and drive a auto, (or vice versa) without and difference

    So, as with martial arts, the more, is better, to develop more necessary skillsets

    The less does not apply to martial arts nor mechanics, nor carpentry, nor medical
    Richard Scardina

  12. #25
    Gareth Del Monte Guest

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    Hello Sir.
    I completely agree with you.
    As long as one puts in the practice and adapts to the new situation one will prevail.
    Also as you mentioned to move from one platform of weapon be it pistol,rifle etc. to another can be relatively easy if someone is willing to train properly with their newly issued weapon,has experience with the overall concepts of the weaponry being used and understands them.
    It is definitely a mindset.
    I guess therefore a good foundation is essential in order to build upon in order to increase your skill-set into a system that best suits you and is multifaceted.
    I do understand from this discussion that we have had now that more is better.As long as it is built on a solid foundation of good Martial practice taught and learnt in the correct manner and setting.
    Thank you for helping me learn and understand this as it definitely will help me grow as a person and will make me train differently and hopefully more effectively!
    Keep well Sir,
    Gareth.

  13. #26
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    Even with proper training issues can still arise, such as recovery of previously "trained out" or "trained over" behaviors. Some of it is how we as humans process stress, and some is how the individual processes it.

    So it simply is not that simple.

    A stark example of this is an officer in the Midwest - a newer officer and so not so far away from his basic training. One also known to practice extensively with his chosen sidearm and holster and to be very skilled.

    This officer decided to switch to a holster with a higher level of retention. For the uninitiated what that means that he added a finger break retention in addition to a thumb break retention.

    He practiced with it. A lot. His department even had a qualification for people switching holsters in this manner, which he readily passed. So, a minor stress was added and he was able to perform...

    Until one early morning when he checked on a suspicious vehicle, and on walking back to his patrol car came under fire from the driver. A citizen witness stated that the officer in question - who died that day - was "tugging and tugging at his holster and couldn't seem to get his gun out." An armed citizen ended up engaging the suspect after the officer was killed.

    What did investigators find? The finger break was not released on the holster, though the thumb break was....even though he had proper training and qualified as trained under a given standard, when experiencing a direct, immediate threat to his life, the level of stress was so high that he could not "remember" - cognitively or physically - to disengage a safety that he had practiced many times to do before.

    Many other examples exist - the Mehserle situation (the BART shooting) is another fascinating example of something similar - called a "slip and capture error" in force science terms. I have several of my own.

    These are human factors that are always present no matter how much training you do. The fact of the matter is that it has been scientifically and, unfortunately, practically at the cost of human life, demonstrated that too much and too varied training can be a problem under increasing levels of stress and perception of personal danger. Motor programs are dependent on context, on speed, and on our perception of the immediate threat to our lives.

    Proper training, proper contextual basis for the skills we practice , a high level of practical experience with those contextualized skills, and an ability to perceive properly and manage even lethal threat stress well and recover from in-the-moment errors (avoiding an internal focus on the error) are what helps us. And you will still have other environmental and human factors to contend with.

    To a point, adding training modalities will help. This usually means adding, say, a groundfighting component to a base skill set that does not include said training. Otherwise, staying within a specific training modality and gaining more and more repetitions will make it more robust. For redundancy, adding training that allows you to use the same motor programs in different situations is valid.

    Adding different motor programs for the sake of having a wide range of things to do in a single context can actually have the opposite effect.

    Its also an inefficient use of training time. Neither of these things is good when you rely on your training to help you when you are legitimately in fear for your life.
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

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  15. #27
    Gareth Del Monte Guest

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    Hello Sir.
    I really enjoyed and learnt a lot from your post.
    It obviously covers a wide range of issues and various paradigms experienced within these stressful environments.
    I would just like to ask a basic question.
    With regards to the officer who passed his exams with his newly assigned holster under "stress induced"training conditions.
    However the level of stress in those conditions could obviously not match the level of stress faced when dealing with a real life or death confrontation.
    Thus proving that the "stress induced training"that qualified him was flawed.
    How can one match the amount of stress faced in a real confrontation and duplicate that in a "training environment."
    I don't want to sound totally ignorant,but the very fact that people in any form of Martial or Combative pursuit understand that "this is training."Therefore obviously they know that their lives are not really in jeopardy.
    I understand that through well designed and realistic training programs one can slowly desensitize that fight or flight reaction to the level that one becomes a better combatant,but at what level of duress and how do you reach that level in order for it to be effective outside the training arena.
    It obviously can be done,based on many of the LEO and Military Units,specifically the tactical ones,who experience this stress all the time and basically just deal with it.
    But does one have to become a Delta Force Operator and work under those conditions as well as the training received,in order to become desensitized to stress to the point where one can operate in this terrible environment?Most of the stress received these types of individuals are used to it and its just another day at the office based on their work and training.
    How does your average Martial Artist then receive this type of mentality and stress control when they are training in a relatively risk free environment and only for infrequent amounts of time?
    Thank you,
    Gareth.

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    Kit, as always, nice post.
    Tony Urena

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    The discussion upon Law Enforcement, training of, firearms, etc., can go on infinity. Finding situations on either side.

    A LEO, has to not only be accustomed and trained with his firearm, but other tools such as driving skills, PR24 or other cudgel (were applicable in county), X26 Taser, communications-radio, perp submission-basic hand training, etc.

    THEREFORE, HE HAS TO STUDY AND LEARN "MORE"


    The basic concept I hold to is more is better (as long as it is applicable)

    For example, to fight better, one should not solely rely on stand-up methods. The "more" or add to this is also to study grappling art

    To learn or apply self defense better, the "more" or add to this is the study of legal, applicable, etc., per beyond martial art physical methods
    Richard Scardina

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    Another way to think of this would be to consider the negligent discharge.

    The negligent discharge - formerly known as the accidental discharge (and probably still should be....) is when the finger presses the trigger when the shooter does not want to do so.

    NO ONE is immune to these things, and some of the most highly trained shooters/operators in the world have had them, or take note of them in their weapons handling skills. Why do they need to do this, when all of these shooters have been trained since day one to keep their fingers off the trigger until they are ready to shoot?

    Stuff happens. The brain farts. The body has a mind of its own sometimes. Stress exacerbates these things, always, and for some people far worse than others. And sometimes the people most comfortable with firearms get the most complacent.

    Add other bells and whistles - more stuff like flashlights, like having to draw and shoot at speed, shooting while moving, shooting while moving and communicating, shooting while moving and communicating and using a flashlight.....and the potential goes up for these things to happen.

    That potential goes up for EVERYBODY, because the layers are being added.

    Now do it hunting for real suspects, or even under fire...

    As an example, Tony and I have done all these things and to the level that they became routine, but only because we practiced the same things over and over. There was still a recognized potential for an N.D. when we did these things. There was a greater potential for people who were new on our respective SWAT teams of doing this, and a far greater potential for patrol officers who maybe trained this one once a year, if that.... and so on.

    Now start adding multiple ways to operate a light - or different lights with different switches in different places, different guns with different safeties and things, even things like different magazine pouches with open tops versus velcro covers versus snap covers, with mags drawn out from the side or the top. Mix all this in and after a while you have a jumbled mess and your brain never gets a chance to hard wire certain movements because rather than spending all that time on one operating system it has to divide time for many different alternatives/options.

    ....and still has to keep the finger off the trigger.
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

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