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Thread: The teachings od Doshin So.

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    Default The teachings od Doshin So.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    Indar, in this case I am saddened by the deliberate dishonesty, and it resembles one of the traits of Stalinism. Rewriting of history is done to limit the ability of people to reason about the present. I'm more generally saddened by WSKO's dishonesty about Doshin So's own teachings, which I believe are valuable and useful. That's not the subject of this thread though.
    Sorry about the seight of hand - to make it clear, the quote above was cut and pasted from another thread.

    W.S.K.O. are dishonest about Doshins So's own teachings? I am a member of W.S.K.O., and always happy to take up the challenge.

    So, can Dave or anyone else expand on this? I'm sure that there are a number of people who agree.

    I didn't ask for permission to post the link below to this forum, but it is on the Internet.

    https://plus.google.com/108076707594...ts/PCaYxwgycSK
    Indar Picton-Howell
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    "W.S.K.O. are dishonest about Doshins So's own teachings? I am a member of W.S.K.O., and always happy to take up the challenge."

    Well, and Dave will be the expert here but WSKO have spent a considerable amount of time and money desperately trying to convince the UK courts that Shorinji Kempo has nothing to do with China or any other influences and that Doshin So invented it all, I guess a kind of divine inspiration if you like. Their lawyers found it quite hard to defend this as the amount of well documented, well published and well distributed evidence against this ridiculous claim was presented.

    Here you go.

    http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Ch/2014/285.html

    So, WSKO have been dishonest about Doshin So's teachings and we have the legal proof of that. The question is, if they're willing to go as far as to deny their own history, Doshin So's own words published in widely distributed books (muppets) and of course the BSKF's,(see other thread) what else are they, or have they, been willing to be dishonest about? ;-)
    Last edited by sean dixie; 3rd September 2014 at 17:25. Reason: As usual I'm petrified of Kimpatsu's and his obsession with grammar. I know he's banned here but he has my email...
    Sean Dixie

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    One thing that interested me about Shorinji kempo when I started was ken zen ichinyo. This is a Shaolin monastery concept, used to answer the question "why do Buddhists, who are committed to non-violence, practice kempo?". The answer is because quan (ken) is chan (zen). The ideas of embu, gyo, do (dao), keimyaku no ri and so on all spring from the same source. It is much easier to explain these ideas with their historical context. Like we used to. I'm sure you've read Doshin So's books and WSKO's own literature from the 1980s. Here are some extracts from "What is Shorinji Kempo" (Doshin So, 1972).

    1. “Shorinji Kempo is a martial art developed simultaneously with seated Zen meditation for the sake of both self-defense and health by the monks in the temple Shorinji in Hunan Province, China. It was first introduced to this temple by Bodhidharma, a sixth century Indian monk who travelled to China to spread the Buddhist faith. A profoundly meditative martial regime, Shorinji kempo was for many ages never taught to any but those who entered the Buddhist priesthood... Unfortunately, however the international reputation of Shorinji kempo has heretofore rested on its importance in the early development of karate.”

    2. "Although the name Shorinji kempo often appears in texts on Judo and Karate, until the present, because no one has ever given it a thorough explanation, people have tended to regard it as a legendary martial art. Therefore, I, as the only true successor to the Shorinji tradition have decided to reveal at least some of its secrets to the reading public… The Shaolin-ssu (Shorinji in Japanese) temple, located in Honan Prefecture in China, was the site where Bodhidharma, a sixth-century Buddhist patriarch, introduced Shorinji kempo to a group of Buddhist priests, who for many ages practiced it in conjunction with Zen meditation as a spiritual discipline.... In agreement with this general principle, when I first brought Shorinji kempo to Japan I refused to allow anyone to train who would not enter our group and take a vow to use his knowledge only for good."

    3. “The ancient art of Shorinji kempo has become widely known only in recent years although it traces its origin to the India of almost 5000 years ago. It has a dynamic history of development. Many of the basic techniques are still observed, but the present form differs from the original Indian one. Through contact with Buddhism, transmission to different cultures, and assimilation of elements from other kinds of weaponless fighting, Shorinji kempo has gradually and continually developed its present form...."

    And here are some excerpts from A Textbook for Foreign Branches (WSKO, 1980).

    5. “Shorinji kempo is a martial art developed simultaneously with seated Zen meditation for the sake of both self-defense and health by the monks at the temple Shorinji in Hunan Province, China. It was first introduced to this temple by Bodhidharma, a sixth century Indian monk who travelled to China to spread the Buddhist faith”

    6. “In 1928, Doshin So returned to Manchuria, this time as a member of a secret organisation. To facilitate his covert activities, he became a disciple of a Taoist priest who was also an executive of the Zaijari secret society and a master of Byakurenmonken, a branch of kempo originating at the Shorinji. This was So’s first contact with kempo.”

    7. “In his role as a secret agent, So was forced to travel widely to gather information for his organisation, and this gave him the opportunity to meet masters of kempo of various kinds… As had been true of the Taoist priest under whom he had studied earlier, however, these men too knew only a handful of techniques that lacked any kind of organisation. But trip (sic) to Peking brought young So into contact with the twentieth master of the North Shorinji Giwamonken School of Kempo, whose direct disciple he immediately became. Having resigned himself to the unhappy likelihood that he would be the last of the Kempo head masters, this elderly man was overjoyed at finding an enthusiastic and skilful young follower. In a ceremony at the Shorinji Temple, in 1936, Doshin So was officially designated the successor of the leader of the north Shorinji school”

    Now compare with this:
    http://www.shorinjikempo.or.jp/en/en_history01.html

    No mention of the "ancient art", the Shaolin monastery, or from where Doshin So learned kempo. "Doshin So recalled a mural that he had once seen in China".

    This is worth a read:
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Shaolin-...9566262&sr=8-1
    David Dunn
    Cambridge Dojo
    BSKF

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    Is the suggestion that the "New" version seeks to downplay any historical connections in order to claim Intellectual Property rights? Is this a new angle on the doubts that were expressed over So Doshin's own version of events, where it was suggested that the Shaolin connection was more in his mind than in any real passing down? Are WSKO leaving out the stuff that they know is difficult to prove, or are they hiding connections that would prevent them having sole use of the intellectual property?

    Over the years, many keen kenshi have wanted to find out as much as possible about the roots, the origins and the backstory. It was said (I seem to recall) that part of the studies and research done by the Busen students was to build up a library of historical information. What happened to that? I understand that there is very little that survived the various upheavals both modern and ancient in China, but haven't things improved in recent years? Now that Shaolin has become a big thing for China, isn't it easier to do some studies?
    David Noble
    Shorinji Kempo (1983 - 1988)
    I'll think of a proper sig when I get a minute...

    For now, I'm just waiting for the smack of the Bo against a hard wooden floor....

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    The Shaolin book that David D linked to looks interesting. One review on Amazon picks out some key myths that were examined, and dismissed;
    5) Bodhidharma was not connected with Shaolin fighting arts until the 17th century. Prior to this, he was only considered the progenitor of Chan Buddhism. The first published source that mentions Bodhidharma in connection with Shaolin arts is the Sinew Changing Classic, which was written by a Taoist in 1624. This is the source for all current legends that state he taught monks exercises to strengthen their bodies. However, as originally conceived, these exercises ultimately ended in immortality. Practitioners of the 17th century "internal school," which predates the creation of Taiji, and eventually died out, combined the Wu Dang priest Zhang Sanfeng with a Taoist God (The Dark Warrior) to create a Taoist equivalent of Bodhidharma. Hence, Bodhi became the legendary progenitor of the "External" or "Northern school" and Zhang the "internal" or "Southern school."
    If I were a chap who reads, I would probably buy this. I'm too poor and too lazy. Why do you think I come online for my entertainment.
    David Noble
    Shorinji Kempo (1983 - 1988)
    I'll think of a proper sig when I get a minute...

    For now, I'm just waiting for the smack of the Bo against a hard wooden floor....

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    An excerpt from another of the reviews of that book;
    Likewise, he demonstrates that empty-handed fightings styles, both historical and contemporary, that claim to have originated at Shaolin are equally dubious. Anyone today claiming to practice martial arts with their roots in Shaolin - aside from modern wushu - will be hard pressed to do so after reading this book.
    David Noble
    Shorinji Kempo (1983 - 1988)
    I'll think of a proper sig when I get a minute...

    For now, I'm just waiting for the smack of the Bo against a hard wooden floor....

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    Good posts. Thank you.

    Thanks also for the links. This link also looks interesting.

    http://members.tripod.com/queens_kar...o2_1986Sep.pdf

    Note: "Here we heard some of the early background of the life of the founder So, and the path that led him to develop the art which he named after the Chinese monastery fighting styles popularly known as "Shaolin Temple boxing". (My italics).

    While on the subject of hyperlinks, I spoke to Huw Evans yesterday at training. He confirmed that he is happy for me to post the link to his webpage. On the subject of honesty, (which I think is relevant), I haven't personally seen the evidence of forged documents, but I know who I trust.
    Indar Picton-Howell
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    Abujavol

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    Thank you Indar. That was the best thing I've read in ages. It is the sort of source material that we never had "back in the day". It made me feel very old indeed to see this scanned document, that featured such an old-school font and <gasp> hand-drawn diagrams!

    This thread could become a classic. Does anyone have the full manga version of So Doshin's life story? Is it available anywhere? I only ever saw a few pages of that, but it looked so cool.
    David Noble
    Shorinji Kempo (1983 - 1988)
    I'll think of a proper sig when I get a minute...

    For now, I'm just waiting for the smack of the Bo against a hard wooden floor....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tripitaka of AA View Post
    Thank you Indar. That was the best thing I've read in ages. It is the sort of source material that we never had "back in the day". It made me feel very old indeed to see this scanned document, that featured such an old-school font and <gasp> hand-drawn diagrams!
    Always be very careful about anything that you see on the Internet. But this appears authentic, and I am a specialist in this area, since my masters degree is in Internet Engineering.
    Indar Picton-Howell
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    Abujavol

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    Hi David,

    I haven't written on here in years, interesting thread you have going here. I have a copy of the "So Doshin Monogatari" manga, got it at Hombu years ago for about 500 yen. You can pick one up from Amazon Japan for 9000 yen, ouch...I'd paste the link but it's about a mile long. It looks a bit like the Watchtower publications I find in my mailbox here in Japan.

    Cheers.
    Mike Johnson
    Noboribetsu, Hokkaido

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    Gassho!

    Welcome back, Mike-san!

    Quote Originally Posted by migjohns View Post
    I'd paste the link but it's about a mile long.
    You can post a link by just writing any word or phrase here, selecting it and clicking on the link button (a globe with something like a lying 8 at the bottom), then pasting the link in the window that appears.

    Kesshu,
    ______ Jan.
    Jan Lipsius
    少林寺拳法
    Shorinjikempo
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    "An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind." Gandhi

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    Thanks Jan,

    Here's a link if anyone is interested. It was good value for 500 yen, but certainly not worth 9000.
    So Doshin Monogatari

    Cheers,
    Mike Johnson
    Noboribetsu, Hokkaido

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