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Thread: Guardians vs. Warriors

  1. #31
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    But here's the rub:

    - Call the cops only when there's an emergency...You can report your burglaries, thefts, frauds, with no suspect information direct to your insurance company. Noisy neighbors, barking dogs, the guy who yells at you and calls you names, the guys openly drinking on your street as your kids pass by to go to school, or in front of you business while you are open, or sleeping by your door overnight and leaving feces, etc. are not police issues.

    - Don't want people drinking in the park where your kids play? Having sex in the restroom loudly near the playground so all can hear? Leaving needles and trash and used toilet paper? Call the cops...

    Not coming. Not a police problem:

    At the very least there will no longer be any serious effort to confront these folks, as the level of authority to address such issues, when it is now civil, becomes grayer and nothing that might spark a use of force will be pursued in the interest of tactical restraint - some courts have been very clear that minor criminal offenses and civil "offenses" (such as officers serving commitment papers, or responding to the mentally ill and forcing an intervention) require a much greater restraint and do not justify significant use of force...so...

    - Your kid is suicidal, you are seriously concerned he may hurt himself, you want him committed to an institution because he won't seek help on his own, won't take his meds, and is self-medicating with street drugs? No longer an issue for the police. We can have a chat with him, provide you with a number for mental health/crisis, and good luck with that.... (this is already becoming a reality and it frustrates some very good people who can't believe that we won't force an intervention....)

    - And that gun that was taken off the guy who peed in public? The one that was later traced to the string of armed robberies and a shooting? It won't be found - no longer any authority to pat down, to make an arrest, or to search.

    -The guys slinging dope on the street corner - poisoning and intimidating the neighbors? Can't prove its dope being sold, and now won't be contacting them for the thing you CAN prove - drinking in public.

    - The sex offender wanted for child rape in a city 100 miles away that you just happened to locate and arrest when he violated park curfew? Won't even be contacted any more: certainly won't be asked for ID....its a low level offense.

    - Your neighbors keep you up night after night with loud parties and what you are sure is drug use. Cops don't come anymore. You can address it yourself, or attempt community mediation. Except you think they are criminals and are pretty sure the guy is an outlaw biker or a member of a gang ....still, police aren't coming - its civil, a quality of life issue, and a confrontation may ensue upon police contact and force may be used and they won't risk that for a minor infraction.

    I'm simply making a counter-point: be careful what you wish for. On some level I'd be all for the police getting out of the public nuisance business. I frankly don't think we should have anything to do with traffic accidents unless a crime is involved: at all. Its a civil matter. Much of what we do domestic violence wise where no crime has occurred or even suspected is to my mind serious governmental overreach.

    As some of these things noted above are already starting to occur, it remains to be seen how much the current climate will result in further de-policing. Some of it will be appropriate and for the better, some of it will leave people frustrated and angry about what "nothing can be done" about. And less safe and fewer criminals will be caught. And when crime rates go back up again....

    And what do we do about that thorny issue that isn't even part of the discussion? That law enforcement is called just that: enforcement. Is there room for enforcement at all? Should some groups (racial, socio-economic...) be given a pass on some matters that other groups are not given in the interest of "fairness?" Is that actually fair? What crimes/issues should the police enforce and which ones shouldn't they? What authority will attach to said enforcement? Are certain things enforceable only when the perpetrator cooperates, and if he does not, force is not authorized so that he should simply be allowed to walk? (We are already there with pursuits after traffic infractions in many places...)

    And so on. Much more complex issue than encapsulated in one sided definitions of warriors and guardians....

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  3. #32
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    The Police Use of Force project: a scorecard for America's police-department policies
    A group of activists, data scientists and policy analysts have conducted a survey of the use of force policies in place in America's cities, ranking them by whether they meet four common-sense criteria: whether the priority of force is "preserving life"; whether officers are required to de-escalate situations; whether officers are allowed to choke civilians; and whether officers are required to intervene to prevent their colleagues from using excessive force.

    The researchers used the Freedom of Information Act to extract use-of-force guidelines from the police forces they ranked, and published all their source data.

    The research has led to a model use-of-force policy that police forces can use to minimize excessive force by officers against civilians.

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    POLICE USE OF FORCE POLICIES LACK BASIC PROTECTIONS AGAINST Police violence

    These policies often fail to include common-sense limits on police use of force, including:

    1. Failing to make life preservation the primary principle shaping police decisions about using force

    2. Failing to require officers to de-escalate situations, where possible, by communicating with subjects, maintaining distance, and otherwise eliminating the need to use force

    3. Allowing officers to choke or strangle civilians, in many cases where less lethal force could be used instead, resulting in the unnecessary death or serious injury of civilians

    4. Failing to require officers to intervene and stop excessive force used by other officers and report these incidents immediately to a supervisor
    https://boingboing.net/2016/01/23/th...ce-projec.html
    Nullius in verba

  4. #33
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    "3. Allowing officers to choke or strangle civilians, in many cases where less lethal force could be used instead, resulting in the unnecessary death or serious injury of civilians"

    Research in Canada (forget the name of the researcher, but I had a personal conversation with her at the Institute for the Prevention of In-Custody Death. They were strangling volunteers for 40 seconds!) It has shown that carotid strangles are one of the safest techniques around. Why is it that strangles are allowed in jr. high judo and have been for over 100 years in Japan? There has been one fatality, and that, apparently, was an adult coach gratuitously strangling a child with depraved intent, if I recall correctly (it was 35 years ago).

    Eric Garner? I do not minimize, in any way, the tragedy for his family that he died in a struggle with police over a misdemeanor that, in my view, should not even be a crime. But a) that is the fault of the citizens of NYC and their politicians, who passed such a law, not the law enforcement officers who are required to enforce it. b) it appears to me from the video that more time might have been taken to talk him into compliance. c)BUT - Mr. Garner was not strangled to death. He was morbidly obese and he died of heart failure struggling with the police. Again, argue for de-escalation and tactical communication. Argue for a change in silly laws like forbidding people from reselling the cigarettes they bought. But he didn't die of a strangle. Agencies without strangles require officers to use either percussive instruments or taser, because wrist locks and pressure points just will not work in most cases when attempting an arrest.

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  6. #34
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    Ellis --

    here have been at least 108 deaths in judo in Japan in the time since you left Japan. I haven't looked to see how many were due to strangles. Anyway, regardless of country, deaths in secondary school sport tend to go under-reported. School administrators need to protect the privacy of the children, you know. http://ir.canterbury.ac.nz/handle/10092/6869

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    Joe - thanks for the update. I clicked the link and didn't find the article. What is the title. I'm going to wager that more than a few were due to concussions and bullying. I do remember when the young kid died, though. Rather than a cover-up, it was national news, and both judo experts and medical folks expressed bewilderment that someone died from a strangle. There was a lot of talk about ni-dou jime (two-time strangle), which is strangling the person again just as they are reviving from unconsciousness.

    At any rate, I will stand by my general pronouncement. The strangle, properly applied, is a remarkably safe method of subduing a combative person, particularly one bigger or in a delirium state. I cannot think of another that is as safe, yet effective.

    Then again, there's always this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLUJSzNl3JI

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    To avoid thread drift, I'm going to set up a new thread on judo deaths. Doing some online research.

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    I'd check BJJ and submission grappling as well where far more strangles occur than in judo. Once again misinformation and misunderstanding in action.

  10. #38
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    Ellis --

    Wrong link indeed. That was one to a very good dissertation by Alex Bennett on kendo, actually. It should have been http://judojiko.net/eng/ .

    And yes, lots of the Japanese school deaths do appear to be associated with bullying. One can say the same thing about the deaths of US police cadets during defensive tactics training, actually. I haven't tracked DT deaths specifically, but I am aware of at least three police cadet deaths associated with bullying during DT training (none in Washington State, fortunately).

  11. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Svinth View Post
    I haven't tracked DT deaths specifically, but I am aware of at least three police cadet deaths associated with bullying during DT training (none in Washington State, fortunately).
    Source for that?

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    So much mental disconnect between cops and law abiding civilians. There is even mental disconnect between myself and the cops who are my best long life friends.

    Example: Sensei and I went to a Goju Ryu Gasshuku. Sensei was street cop most his life. He and most my dojo seniors were cops. Well ..... I booked a motel room for us at a Red Roof Inn. The room door faces the parking lot. Right off the bat Sensei is pissed but I'm cheap and I booked the cheapest room. That night there is a knock on the door and I wake just enough to see Sensei in the dark heading to door with his Glock and he shouts WHAT DO YOU WANT!. Male voice answers I thought there was a party here. He leaves.

    Next day Sensei says. Look, our car is parked in front of the door of this motel room. The guy knows there is someone there. It is 2:00AM and the lights are out, so there is no party. He knocks on the door if a female voice answer he tries to force his way into the room. He tells me my problem is I don't know how to think like a bad guy. I don't understand evil. I thought I did but realized he right. I lived and breathed with cops most my life. I used to do ride alongs because friends would ask me to. I've seen some shit but I have some of this mental disconnect. The majority of good people worse off than I am and do not have a clue as to the nature of evil. Sadly there are people in this world that need killing or to be permanently locked up. Most decent folks can't really grasp this.

    I never had to book the hotel room again for any more Karate trips.
    Ed Boyd

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  14. #41
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    Default Mapping Police Violence

    Nullius in verba

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    There is a flip side to the mis-characterization, whether in ignorance or by design to further the narrative, and lack of intellectual honesty that marks the agenda driven conversations, and much media reporting - although some outlets do appear to be attempting to balance their coverage with positive stories of police involvement with their communities.

    That flip side is that in the 19 years I have done this work, in the past few I have received more well wishes from more members of the public than ever before. The frequency with which my coffee is paid for in the drive up line at Starbucks - with the words "Be Safe" or " Thanks for what you do" has increased noticeably. People - of all races - increasingly stop me with words of support and who thank me for my service. Interestingly, I have been thanked more often by the folks in handcuffs in the back of my car as well, and had more conversations about people getting off drugs or getting off the streets as well.

    One touching event happened at my child's school. The class is preparing for an out of state trip - sans parents - and the kids are obviously excited about being without their moms and dads for the first time. As a joke, I told several of them that I changed my mind, and would be coming after all. After the immediate look of disappointment, one of the girls - a beautiful Iranian girl from a wonderful family - smiled and said "actually I wouldn't mind if you come. It would make me feel much safer."

    It's all about perspective. Something those with broad brushes find hard to achieve when painting their pictures.

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  17. #43
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    To which agenda are you referring:

    The conservative media's (via The American Conservative),

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    or the liberal media's (via Democracy Now!)?

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    Nullius in verba

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    Both, of course. It's not about politics, its about misconceptions. Both from ignorance and by design.

    So...the question is begged...what is the alternative? Aside from the silly "why can't they just shoot the gun out of their hands?" or "why don't they just Tase them" (when a person is armed with a knife or a gun - never mind that not so long ago Tasers were allegedly responsible for too many deaths and should be removed from the hands of the police).

    What should officers do when an extremely disturbed person charges them with a bat? With a knife? With a gun? With a realistic firearm indistinguishable in a flash instant from a real gun?

    Hope that if the person gets a hit in it won't cause serious injury? Hope it won't be fatal? Gamble with their own life? Is that the standard expected? Some have actually proposed that LEOs allow a suspect a first strike, wait to be fired upon - even at point blank range - before they can engage a suspect.

    Shall they wait while the domestic violence suspect beats his family's door down with a club, and makes entry, and violently assaults another before they act? And when verbal commands don't work, and less lethal does not work, allow a suspect a first strike at an innocent before lethal force is used?

    Since workable alternatives are conspicuously absent when the actual use of force is considered (though systemic changes are workable (and incidentally they have come from the system, and not from anywhere else), they have already and will continue to demand a much different expectation of police services.
    Last edited by Hissho; 8th February 2016 at 08:59.

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  20. #45
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    This article ponders what the alternative should be.

    Matt Taibbi and Others on Freddie Gray, Broken Windows & Community Policing
    Matt Taibbi has produced what we all expect from him, an in-your-face analysis of a social issue. This time, in the latest Rolling Stone, it’s a commentary on what happened during the lead-up to the protests in Baltimore. His lead-in is powerful:

    “When Baltimore exploded in protests a few weeks ago following the unexplained paddy-wagon death of a young African-American man named Freddie Gray, America responded the way it usually does in a race crisis: It changed the subject.

    “Instead of using the incident to talk about a campaign of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of illegal searches and arrests across decades of discriminatory policing policies, the debate revolved around whether or not the teenagers who set fire to two West Baltimore CVS stores after Gray’s death were ‘thugs,’ or merely wrongheaded criminals.”

    Taibbi notes that the debate has also focused on policing, as though the issue would be addressed with more body cameras (as Baltimore has already committed to provide) and better police training as opposed to dealing with “poverty, race, abuse, all that depressing inner city stuff.”

    “Body cameras won’t fix it,” he writes. “You can’t put body cameras on a system.”

    It is systemic across the nation, he says, and not just in Baltimore, though the stories he cites from Baltimore are horrendous:

    “Go to any predominantly minority neighborhood in any major American city and you’ll hear the same stories: decades of being sworn at, thrown against walls, kicked, searched without cause, stripped naked on busy city streets, threatened with visits from child protective services, chased by dogs, and arrested and jailed not merely on false pretenses, but for reasons that often don’t even rise to the level of being stupid.”

    He describes policing against inner city blacks as the equivalent of South Africa in the 1980s, but invisible to most white people because they “have literally no social interactions with black people, so they don’t hear about this every day.”

    Taibbi puts much of the blame—and devotes much of his article to—the “Broken Windows” theory of policing that took hold under New York City police commissioner Bill Bratton during Rudy Giuliani’s terms as New York City mayor. He calls it “organized harassment” that had little or no impact on the crime rate. He goes through a variety of specifics of abusive police behavior, including an interesting story about one mayor who was as obsessed with Broken Windows metrics as anyone, former Baltimore mayor and now presidential candidate Martin O’Malley. In Baltimore, at the peak of the implementation of this strategy in 2005, 108,000 of the city’s 600,000 residents had been arrested, he says, a figure that seems incredibly high and hard to validate. Nonetheless, Taibbi’s point is that in this kind of policing system, huge numbers of citizens have formal encounters with the police even when they have done nothing to warrant police intervention.

    The problem is that Taibbi’s analysis, brilliant, incisive, and deftly written, is long on why the police strategies employed in Baltimore and elsewhere are counterproductive, but short on options for the future—other than implicitly getting rid of this kind of policing. But what to put in its place?

    Continued.
    Nullius in verba

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