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Thread: USA and Guns

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by gendzwil View Post
    If a guy is attacking with a knife and is within 20 feet, a cop will (and should) shoot him.
    Depending on the distance, this article is very interesting
    http://www.policeone.com/edged-weapo...-valid-Part-1/

    And I hope they would shoot in a leg for example, so not a deadly shot

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carina Reinhardt View Post
    And I hope they would shoot in a leg for example, so not a deadly shot
    Centre of mass, every time. Shooting to wound is very high risk and not taught. I don't have the stats to hand but IIRC some very large percentage of trained LEOs miss even the centre of mass target in a real life situation. Asking them to risk serious injury or death out of concern for the criminal attacking them is ludicrous.
    Neil Gendzwill
    Saskatoon Kendo Club

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by gendzwil View Post
    Centre of mass, every time. Shooting to wound is very high risk and not taught. I don't have the stats to hand but IIRC some very large percentage of trained LEOs miss even the centre of mass target in a real life situation. Asking them to risk serious injury or death out of concern for the criminal attacking them is ludicrous.
    I suppose so

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carina Reinhardt View Post
    Yes ,the outcome could have been similar, but most likely that if he only had a knife, the police could have controlled him differently and he would be now in a reha center. But having a gun, now there are 3 people who suffer: the wife and son of the victim and the police who shot.
    http://crimepreventionresearchcenter...knife-attacks/

    No. A knife is no less lethal than a gun.

  5. #35
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    https://au.news.yahoo.com/nsw/a/2625...ds-in-tragedy/

    Something similar happened in Australia. A mentally ill woman was brandishing a knife in public. When police approached her she lunged at them with it. They shot her. Many Australians were enraged with the police and said the same thing; they should have shot her in the leg or shot the knife out of her hand. This is where ignorance of "gun culture" and the human stress response comes into play. Anyone who has read Kit's numerous and excellent posts knows that under stress we lose fine motor skill abilities. This is the purpose of training, to try to condition ourselves to deal with he stress and adrenaline dump. Even the best trained people still have a certain level of stress response. It is unrealistic to expect a patrol officer with a handgun to have sniper like abilities when they are faced with a life threatening attack. It is the product of ignorance about combatives and the product of Hollywood. I think many people in the world are very lucky that they do not have to take these things into consideration in their daily lives. Most folks here have the luxury to practice their budo for health, self improvement and friendship. They don't have to worry if they can really execute their technique under a full load of stress in the face of mortal danger, but they should be mindful there are folks here that do just that and they should take that into consideration.

    And Mark is very right a knife can be just as bad as a gun. About this time last year in Kunming China several suspects stabbed and killed 29 people and wounded another 130. Two years ago at Lone Star College in Cypress, Texas, USA a suspect stabbed and wounded 14 victims. The sad part is if a person is intent on doing great harm to other people they will find a way. We happen to have a lot of guns in the US so that seems to be the most popular method but where there are no guns they'll find something else to do it with.
    Christopher Covington

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    All views expressed here are my own and don't necessarily represent the views of the arts I practice, the teachers and people I train with or any dojo I train in.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by WVMark View Post
    http://crimepreventionresearchcenter...knife-attacks/

    No. A knife is no less lethal than a gun.
    Yes we can read in this article that there can also be a mass killing with knifes, and the case mentioned by Chris in Australia, yet I think it takes more courage, as it is necessary a shorter distance and to face the victims to kill somebody with a knife , that would not stop mentally ill people, but it still is easier to kill a person with a gun

  7. #37
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    Carina,

    Another reason that police are trained to shoot centre-mass is that every time a round is fired there is the risk of hitting a bystander or even someone quite far away. This risk must be minimized so the highest percentage shot is usually taken.

    I commend everyone for keeping this discussion civil.
    Al Heinemann
    www.shofukan.ca

  8. #38
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    I think it is quite reasonable and proper to have such a discussion here and, it is hoped, to maintain a higher quality than I have found on Facebook etc.

    However, there is a wide gap in the perceptions of those are members of a 'gun-culture' such as the US and a non-gun culture, such as Japan (but where the police are also armed).

    I think the first step might be to establish some common ground.
    Peter Goldsbury,
    Forum Administrator,
    Hiroshima, Japan

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hissho View Post
    Raff

    Courts have ruled that it is not the duty of the police (the government) to protect the individual citizen, unless a duty is somehow otherwise created. This is basically serves to prevent lawsuits due to extended response times, etc. "when seconds count, the police are minutes away" sorta thing. They can't be responsible to you as an individual, they are not your personal bodyguard, because it is simply unworkable.

    You call 911 to have the police come because a guy is kicking down your door. But there was just a major drunk driving accident and a shooting on the other side of the city and the five cops working tonight are all busy. Its going to take a while for the cops to get there...

    Joe goes out, gets drunk, is contacted by an officer that learns that though Joe is drunk he is certainly not gravely disabled, the officer releases him to walk home and he jaywalk and gets hit by a car. In the US, many think it is of course the officers fault that Joe got hit by a car, so the individual officer and the agency he works for is often sued over things like this.

    But in general, and when the police can do so, they will do what they can to Protect a citizen that calls for help.

    Thanks Kit, it is much more clear now. I see that we all face the same kind of problems, whatever the country, when "out in the field".
    Deception is one of Kenpo´s best technique.

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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdostie View Post
    "Gun culture" is a media take on this, largely built by the media.
    Not for me. That is my personal impression from talking to quite a few Americans. My father is from northern Michigan, I spent a good chunk of my summers there as a kid, I have a lot of American relatives and friends. The attitude in general is much, much different than in Canada. It's a cultural thing.
    Neil Gendzwill
    Saskatoon Kendo Club

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by gendzwil View Post
    Not for me. That is my personal impression from talking to quite a few Americans. My father is from northern Michigan, I spent a good chunk of my summers there as a kid, I have a lot of American relatives and friends. The attitude in general is much, much different than in Canada. It's a cultural thing.
    In West Virginia, it's a cultural thing, but nowhere near what the media makes it out to be. I think that might have been his point. In West Virginia, part of that culture was growing up with guns, yes, but it also included hunting, fishing, trapping, camping, hiking, etc. You were taught safety with many things. Guns being one part. It was common to see people carrying rifles and pistols around. No big deal, especially during hunting season. The media's view of "gun culture" is distorted and perverted. Largely because they psychologically project their own subconscious fears upon another group.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WVMark View Post
    In West Virginia, it's a cultural thing, but nowhere near what the media makes it out to be. I think that might have been his point.
    Basically, that's correct.

    For sure there are some gun nuts, etc. And maybe I live a slightly sheltered life (but I don't think so), but in my experience, the "gun culture" is magnified greatly in the media compared to what I see in day to day life.
    Joseph Dostie

  13. #43
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    Funny how the US is picked on for it "gun culture" but in this article we not even close to the top of the list:
    http://www.theguardian.com/news/data...hip-world-list

    Name:  GunCrime.PNG
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    Another thing to remember is that people who what to take lives will takes lives.
    Banning guns will not solve the problem because the problem is not with guns it's with the criminals.
    http://www.breitbart.com/national-se...try-in-europe/

    That said what does a county do when it has already banned guns but still has issue with violent crimes?
    They ban everything else:
    http://countercurrentnews.com/2014/1...for-knife-ban/
    Joe Stitz

    "Black belt and white belt are the same, white belt is the beginning of technique. Black belt is the beginning of understanding. Both are beginner belts."
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  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by JS3 View Post
    Funny how the US is picked on for it "gun culture" but in this article we not even close to the top of the list:
    http://www.theguardian.com/news/data...hip-world-list

    Name:  GunCrime.PNG
Views: 116
Size:  36.1 KB
    We had something similar already in a video in #6

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by allan View Post
    Carina,

    Another reason that police are trained to shoot centre-mass is that every time a round is fired there is the risk of hitting a bystander or even someone quite far away. This risk must be minimized so the highest percentage shot is usually taken.

    I commend everyone for keeping this discussion civil.
    A gunfight isn't target shooting. The tunnel vision and other impacts of wholesale adrenline dump cannot be understated.
    Ed Boyd

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