Likes Likes:  29
Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 61

Thread: States of Mind: Fudoshin

  1. #16
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    1,165
    Likes (received)
    335

    Default

    I personally think its both - mental and physical that is - though it is very much a truth that what we are generally left with in martial arts training is much more about imaginings than it is about development of the things fudoshin points to in terms of mindset, in additional to the physical. Too often we do see musings of the "all I need is the will to win" variety, appeals to authority of "battlefield tradition," or combatives that are predicated on physical attributes and the closed environment of competitive martial sports.


    Similarly, it is a mistake to think that development of physical and technical skills absent the legitmate mental aspect is sufficient. Numerous examples of this, both under fire and in force on force training. It is and always will be the interplay of both.
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

  2. Likes mkrueger liked this post
  3. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Ma.
    Posts
    191
    Likes (received)
    25

    Default

    As is typical with you and I, I pretty much agree with all of the above.
    The one factor I take issue with is that while I can agree with most MA people on their goals, their traditional training is typically so shot full of holes that they are not only unable to deliver in any serious venue physically, they really don't have any depth of understanding of the higher level concepts within the arts.
    This is just another case in point.
    We can talk all day about the concept of an immovable mental state, an imperturbable, unshakable focus and the various means and methods to get there (which I think goes ways past combatives into even public presentations or legal work) but try to talk to the same people about origins? From Menkyo's, shodan to shihan and MMA alike, it usually (not always) goes back to square one.
    About esoteric training to achieve immovability?
    They have:
    a. no understanding of the training that was actually discussed for thousands of years
    b. little to no understanding of the potentials and outcomes in combatives using this type of training-much less any other venue
    c. no ability what-so-ever to display even the little they think they understand in any physical display

    To sum up...
    Everyone knows the idea of a "mental state." And it is all martial artists seem capable of discussing. Which doesn't say much for the community.
    Got anything else?
    The original guys did.
    And it works!
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 23rd March 2015 at 14:15.
    Dan
    [url=www.bodyworkseminars.org][COLOR=#B22222][B]Ancient traditions * Modern Combatives[/B][/COLOR][B][/url] [/B][COLOR=#B22222][/COLOR]

  4. #18
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Blue Ridge, Texas
    Posts
    1,993
    Likes (received)
    122

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by P Goldsbury View Post
    Hello Paul,

    Fabian's article was quite interesting and I suppose "unmoving / unmoved / unmovable mind" is a reasonable enough translation of 不動心. However, I think it unwise to rely too much on Nitobe's concept of bushido or on Suzuki's views on Zen. An article will appear soon on AikiWeb.

    PAG
    Hey Peter,
    I agree whole-heartedly about Nitobe, have not read more than a smattering of Suzuki, so I'll keep your recommendation in mind. Truthfully, I hardly remembered anything else about the article except for the opening paragraphs (thanks for posting the link Kit!) I've remembered that opening scene with the Japanese ambassador since I first read it in Furyu because, to me, it always seemed to embody the ideal of Fudoshin as I recognize it.
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

  5. #19
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    MD, USA
    Posts
    233
    Likes (received)
    31

    Default

    The ability to act calmly under pressure, even in the face of death, is the most important psychological attribute for any warrior to have. Developing this psychological attribute is not an easy thing to do, and is a challenge that modern armies have faced, as noted by Grossman in _On Killing_. He went over records of Civil War and WWI battles and found that even when face-to-face with the enemy, and one's own life at risk, there seemed to be an instinct present in soliders that prevented them from taking another life.

    The idea that fudoshin is about pushing on people is nonsense. The tai chi products that are on the market today, as interesting as they may be, are descended from civilian traditions which sought to explore the classical philosophies in some manner that didn't require an actual life or death conflict. Even the warrior cultures of Asia - and the warriors of Japan are the only ones worth mentioning, fortunately or unfortunately, as Japan was the Asian civilization that spent the largest share of its history dominated by warriors - have found themselves in times of peace where there were fewer opportunities to experience a real life or death situation.

    To someone who might find himself with a blade in his hand, facing down others with blades in their hands, psychological conditioning is far more important than any type of physical skill. It's the thing that decides whether you live or die.

  6. Likes mkrueger liked this post
  7. #20
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    1,165
    Likes (received)
    335

    Default

    Dan

    OK - yeah, I think we are closer than it seems. I too think we can get more out of elements of traditional practice, mentally and physically, or at least I think I see an inkling of it. So much is dependent on the people practicing the traditions. Then again, I am wary of the current trend in some circles to cleave to combat sports for all or even most of the answers. Combat sport gets one thing very right: they train and test in actual fighting. The problem is it is fighting in a highly controlled format, in a sterilized environment that be necessity removes most of the factors that are addressed - or cause to arise - the mental states we are discussing. Note: traditional training, also largely done in sterilized environments, is many times even worse as it also removes the element of fighting in a resistive way.

    From what I have seen in observing kata, etc. this does not have to be the case.

    Then again, even those with a need for combatives skill in a modern context typically train in ways that are exactly the same: they invoke a mysterious ability to achieve a "will to win" mental state when the chips are down and therefore don't really need to train all that hard or test themselves in demanding or challenging or stressful training because they will just "have it." This is a big mistake vis-a-vis mental states, and is a dangerous complacency.

    And I am very much with Cliff in that mental state can be the very thing that decides life or death. This has been addressed since the ancient classics in China and plays out in modern warfare and in many of the videos of police ambushes and killings I have watched: officers with better armament, better weapons, and better training, and even in greater numbers than their attackers (which is not to say much) overwhelmed by people with a decisive "warrior mind," from wherever that mind derived. This was not lost on our martial forebears, they and monks knowledgeable in matters of the mind wrote on it extensively and provided training methods to develop it: though these too were also "hidden in plain sight" as it were.
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

  8. Likes mkrueger liked this post
  9. #21
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    1,165
    Likes (received)
    335

    Default

    Oops! I wanted to add that I do not think you can completely divorce mindset from the physical aspects of immovability. The one with an immovable body has a far better foundation for immovable mind than one who is struggling with physical performance issues. The latter are a drain on mindset and a distraction - they can and must be trained through, especially when injured, for example - but having a strong body is a force multiplier for the immovable mind. This is why there is a place there where the two converge, are encompassed within one another and are a foundation for each other.

    Similarly hard physical training, challenging training, stressful training, training that attacks one's ego are building blocks for the immovable mind, and so demanding training of the body is helpful.

    In the end though the mindset aspect is the hinge. One can have a strong mind without a strong body, and more often a strong body without a strong mind, but to achieve "immovability" of the highest order I think we need both.
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

  10. Likes mkrueger liked this post
  11. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Ma.
    Posts
    191
    Likes (received)
    25

    Default

    Hi Kit
    I don't have time to write, but you touched on my next series of points.
    You don't place a raw recruit with no ammo into a live fire engagement
    Placing a MA person untrained in internals
    V. a person WITH internals, into a confrontation within the purview of martial skills?
    My money is on the later to have a a greater chance at a settled and focused mind, due to increased advantages.
    These skills were the foundation of MA. And they produce on multiple layers; mental and physical.
    It really doesn't matter to me that the vast majority of people in budo are ignorant of that. So far 100% of them have failed to demonstrate anything... any thing....unusual or even "moving from center."
    It's an emperor with no clothes. So I don't really expect to have a conversation about it.
    Dan
    [url=www.bodyworkseminars.org][COLOR=#B22222][B]Ancient traditions * Modern Combatives[/B][/COLOR][B][/url] [/B][COLOR=#B22222][/COLOR]

  12. #23
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    1,165
    Likes (received)
    335

    Default

    Basically:

    Some people have a gun, but no ammo.

    Some have ammo, but no gun.

    Some have a gun and ammo, but no mindset.

    And some have a gun, ammo and the mindset.
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

  13. Likes Cliff Judge liked this post
  14. #24
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Ma.
    Posts
    191
    Likes (received)
    25

    Default

    Once again Fudo myo-o (Acala vidya) is a training paradigm that has lasted for millennia to create truly powerful skills. That it is being reduced to the lowest common denominator by modern martial artists, sport science, military personnel and cops is really no surprise. While we all agree on the mental aspect of training-more so in force-on-force or life threatening situations circumventing or at least dealing with an adrenaline dump aspect of training, to remain both calm and focused- I simply noted that the concept is far deeper than any of that. For the above named people-particularly budo people- their involvement in a discussion of mind/ body training simply has to stop there or starts to get limited. Why? It is the extent of their information and knowledge.
    Therefore it is understandable to continually read sentences like:
    “My…understanding of Fudo Shin means…"
    It is what it is.
    it was the connection of the mind to control the body that led to a higher level learning that has existed for millennia. Trying to equate and more so -reduce it to- just being a lower level training of mental focus in combatives is just simply wrong. As I said in my earlier post.
    Okay, then…. mental focus under duress. Got it. Got anything else? Anything at all?
    No?
    Why?
    Most people simply haven’t a clue about anything else. No harm, no foul, But it is what it is. Some have some initial understanding of this type of training, but little actual skill in using it. Which bears out in their inability to demonstrate an enhanced mind/ body cultivation either in their arts or bodies. It’s either very, very hard or rather easy, to defend in person. It is interesting that the training models to produce immovability are still extent thought not widely known, none of which I have seen incorporate the unshakable combative mindset idea. That..is different, rather they focus on the mind/body. One example is the hara or dantian: As one ICMA powerhouse who taught in Japan said. "Aiki? Where is yin? Where is Yang? How can there BE...aiki? You cannot pretend daintian, you will be found out!"
    While I have seen better movement from a few Japanese teachers, as of yet I have never met a single person in Aikido, Daito ryu or Koryu who HAS a center, much less sophisticated use of one. Thus discussion of moving “from one” becomes a total waste of time. It would take years from initial meetings to have them start to actually create and move FROM one, forget a meaningful dialogue.
    What remains is that there still exists people who know it and train this material. They are just exceedingly difficult to find and come in various knowledge and skill levels.
    What are they training?

    The immovable body as a concept.
    Again as noted in previous posts, all of the trade names and acumen for this work has existed for generations and has managed to survive direct translations from culture to culture, with the same terminology and practices used from Tibet to India to China and Japan as well as to specific family Indonesian arts. One would first have to know the terminology, and the practices to understand why the common phrasing as a base line. Once that is done, we can see the uses of common terminology and models from Tibet to ICMA, to Japan; the founder of Shinto ryu and other Koryu to Daito ryu on to Ueshiba's aikido. Himself using trademark terminology of six directions, the working of attraction point between yin and yang, aiki being the working of the two ki's as heaven/earth/man. Ages old material. From B.C.E. to 2015.

    Immovability… as a name?
    Here we have just another example with Acala Vidya to Fudo Myo-o.
    Acala vidya or Fudo Myo-o makes perfect sense- as it is written. “Esoteric training to achieve immovability.”
    It makes no sense what-so-ever to call a person, deity or statue....an “esoteric practice!”
    Why bring in vidya, as in prana vidya (esoteric training to work ki or chi), or Myo or Mikkyo?
    Why?
    Why mention a training when you were talking about a diety or person?
    Because you were not! You were talking about a training concept and methodology.
    The mention of a training, an esoteric one at that, is not an imagined state. Which in itself is nice little escape. What a convenient way to equalize all efforts.
    ”This is my fudo shin.”
    “MY…imagined state.”
    "You can't challenge my imagined state...."
    Yet we can challenge an understanding of the real concepts. And why can we? For the simple reason that the thrust of this in the ancient world had teeth. It had a profound physical training model behind it that produced physical, real world results for what feels like immovability and power. Not just being strong willed against adversity.
    Another example for imagined versus real results are in simple but well known models;
    I do this with yogi’s in mountain pose. They can get knocked over with a finger rather easily. Then, I show them an example of “the esoteric training to achieve immovability” behind it and surprise of surprises in about 5 minutes flat…they feel? Well…sort of like a mountain.
    I wonder why they called it.... mountain pose?
    I leave them to choose. You can teach:
    1. Lift your heart chakra to the sun yoginis
    or
    2. Use it to be stable and feel strong....like a mountain.
    It is the same with downward dog and other postures.
    I dunno…maybe words have meaning. Maybe some ancient practices actually are defensible and others are just what they are...simply imagined states.
    Why acala vidya? Why esoteric training that produces immovability? Uhm..because it did, and does and was tracked and trained and discussed and actually useful for real people not living in an imagined state. As stated, it simply makes a direct causal link that it was the training to achieve something profound in many warrior cultures that also had health benefits as well as power that gave name to the concept.

    Why was it not the norm?
    The oft told tale of training in the mountains, training in temples, warrior monks being unusually powerful, has existed for thousands of years. Mind/ body training has been consistently trained solo, many times in isolation and tested and practiced in small groups.
    *First and foremost it was for a mental control of the body to do unusual things that were powerful and out of the norm. That training created different outcomes in combatives that in and of themselves, were forces not normal for an opponent to face, or normal to react to
    *As well, the adepts at it generated unusual effects to forces on them. So… OODA loops for the opponent? They went out the window.
    This was but a couple of examples of many reasons why the training has lasted for millennia. For those who can actually do it instead of just talk, it truly made a palpable difference on contact. The mind body training has created giants in budo and we in turn, look at the giants and follow them, instead of the training. Hence….the majority continue to suck and the giants remain, well, the giants.
    In the dawning of our present age which I call "the age of distraction" higher level, mind/body physical training has proven to just be too much for the instant gratification crowd. Why spend countless hours perfecting a tank like body that is all but impossible to throw and with the ability to hit like truck? Go do techniques. Most modern budo people have dismissed or rewritten history to discount this profound training and reflect their stupefyingly ignorant penchant for banging into each other with fists, legs, bodies, and more so sticks, swords and any things else they can get their hands on.

    It hasn’t gone away. It is just starting to come out to the public. Those so inclined are discovering the arts did have secrets all along. It wasn’t B.S. and they do have worth. It is why they have lasted for eons. Hard physical work is required.
    NOT flinching from a battlefield environment or being focused in a fight ….was not it. Not that there is anything wrong with that. As I asked before:
    Okay. On that we agree.
    Got anything else?
    Anything at all that it could mean?
    No?
    They did!
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 24th March 2015 at 18:45.
    Dan
    [url=www.bodyworkseminars.org][COLOR=#B22222][B]Ancient traditions * Modern Combatives[/B][/COLOR][B][/url] [/B][COLOR=#B22222][/COLOR]

  15. Likes WVMark, Chris Li liked this post
  16. #25
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    1,165
    Likes (received)
    335

    Default

    Yeah Dan, agreed, they did. They wrote and taught quite a bit about it.

  17. #26
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Ma.
    Posts
    191
    Likes (received)
    25

    Default

    Really?
    Where, what and how?
    .............crickets.
    Dan
    [url=www.bodyworkseminars.org][COLOR=#B22222][B]Ancient traditions * Modern Combatives[/B][/COLOR][B][/url] [/B][COLOR=#B22222][/COLOR]

  18. #27
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    1,165
    Likes (received)
    335

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Harden View Post
    Really?
    Where, what and how?
    .............crickets.
    Back in post #17, we pretty much agreed on all the above?

    Crickets? Not sure where you are going with that one??
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

  19. #28
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Ma.
    Posts
    191
    Likes (received)
    25

    Default

    I was asking about alternatives to fudo shin... As in fudo myoo; the discussion. Moving it away from a state of mind, to the Tibetan and Japanese physical reality.
    Esoteric training to achieve immovability. I asked if *you* had anything to discuss because they did.
    You said "Yes they did. They wrote and taught quite a bit about it."
    I asked you
    Who?
    Where?
    What?
    How?
    In my experience it is NOT taught openly or shared. It is rare, not common. I've never read "quite a lot" that was explained anywhere, and as of today, I've not met any Japanese teacher who had or taught this with any depth, much less be capable of pulling it off.
    Without a teacher as a Rosetta Stone, the average person wouldn't have a clue what you were looking at in other sources either. Sort of like reading a mokuroku. Its meaningless to an outsider.
    Hell, I would be happy to read a description of the three common types of heaven/ earth/ man in use from your sources?
    The founder of Shinto ryu credited it to Katori jingu and the source of his sword becoming unstoppable in 1441.
    Ueshiba credited it as the birthplace of all techniques and the essence of Takemusu aiki.
    So....
    What is it?
    Where is it taught?
    From who?
    How do you do it?

    Cady knows a source
    I know a few as well.
    But they are rare.
    What do you have?
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 25th March 2015 at 16:24.
    Dan
    [url=www.bodyworkseminars.org][COLOR=#B22222][B]Ancient traditions * Modern Combatives[/B][/COLOR][B][/url] [/B][COLOR=#B22222][/COLOR]

  20. #29
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    1,165
    Likes (received)
    335

    Default

    Agh! I was thinking we had some common ground in this discussion but looks like we weren't agreeing at all - just talking about different things.

    Martial arts are so much like religion!

  21. Likes Cliff Judge, mkrueger, Brian Owens liked this post
  22. #30
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    3,570
    Likes (received)
    132

    Default

    Just a reminder to keep the discourse civil. Disagreement is fine. Even strong disagreement. But keep the language polite, folks.
    Thank you.
    Cady Goldfield

  23. Likes mkrueger liked this post
Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Fudoshin Ryu Jujutsu
    By tora dojo in forum Jujutsu
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 19th March 2016, 12:29
  2. States of Mind: Mushin
    By pboylan in forum Koryu: History and Tradition
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 2nd March 2015, 18:20
  3. Fudoshin
    By damienmason in forum Budo no Kokoro
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 8th November 2006, 01:00
  4. Fudoshin zen story
    By Amphipolis in forum Budo no Kokoro
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 13th February 2005, 18:27

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •