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Thread: States of Mind: Fudoshin

  1. #31
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    There isn't an argument to be had, at least in person. It is what it is.
    Given what I know and have experienced these last years, I am unmoved that the majority of budo people don't know these things....
    Dan
    [url=www.bodyworkseminars.org][COLOR=#B22222][B]Ancient traditions * Modern Combatives[/B][/COLOR][B][/url] [/B][COLOR=#B22222][/COLOR]

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Harden View Post
    There isn't an argument to be had, at least in person. It is what it is.
    Given what I know and have experienced these last years, I am unmoved that the majority of budo people don't know these things....
    Apologies, Cady... and Peter, did not intend for things to devolve.

    Dan

    Unmoved...I see what you did there....good one!

    I'd agree that many budo people don't really have a perspective on these things... the mind or the body.
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

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  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hissho View Post
    Agh! I was thinking we had some common ground in this discussion but looks like we weren't agreeing at all - just talking about different things.

    Martial arts are so much like religion!
    Sure. We are not agreeing.
    I think it a bit weird to allude to martial arts being a religion though, when you are the one talking about a mental state, and I am the one talking about rock solid, body conditioning that work's tissues to produce testable results.
    There is no belief system or faith required. Or may I say, no hoping that just by sticking around and showing up you'll get somewhere.
    This stuff? Works. Its why it is the foundation of the arts and handles most other MA people with ease. And also why it stood the test of time.

    Acala vidya raja.... the king of esoteric training to achieve immovability. How poetic

    Shirata...
    Place the immovable body
    In an invincible position
    Release metsubushi
    Till the opponant became non resistant

    Takuan:
    "Ignorant people and highly educated people who remained ignorant, don't understand what the qualities of immovability really are, among which is rapid movement."

    One might want to ask oneself. Why does it keep coming up generation after generation?
    And who were.... the ignorant people he referred to...in his day? Wasn't it the highly educated? The experts? Wasn't he saying flat out that then, like today most simply don't get it? Who was one of his famous pupils? Musashi.
    Why did the founder of Shinto ryu, after having trained in internals at katori jingu have a sword he said that was unstoppable? Ask yourself... Against who?
    Was it Takuan's: ignorant, experts?
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 26th March 2015 at 07:16.

  5. #34
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    Maybe there was a common thread to what made the greats.....well...great!
    Why were so many of the greats all pointing back at this material? Why does it keep showing up?
    Obviously those who trained it, stood out from the budo wallpaper. Hence the comparisons, or better stated, the differences from normal people being noted.
    It very well might be the reason you had scores of crash test dummies in the aiki arts in later years not being taught. Because if you taught them this? You're not throwing them any more. You can't. Aiki won't work on people with good internals. It cancels and neutralizes it in its tracks without you even trying much.
    Dan
    [url=www.bodyworkseminars.org][COLOR=#B22222][B]Ancient traditions * Modern Combatives[/B][/COLOR][B][/url] [/B][COLOR=#B22222][/COLOR]

  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hissho View Post

    Martial arts are so much like religion!
    This is a good point. For most, I think the martial arts become like a religion. One where the teachers/shihan become idolized, but not in an obvious manner. If you have a martial art and the full qualities of things like fudoshin are missing, then the most you can talk about are the mental aspects. Those have been addressed here in this thread, which no one disagreed with. Good points. However, it's only one part of the whole. When the actual physical skills and abilities of that whole are missing, then the martial art relies heavily upon what's left. It becomes a focus, a teaching, a central tenet upon which the art relies. The teachers, who haven't been taught the entirety, repeat and teach. When questioned about the entirety, one in the art looks back at their teachers and their teacher's teacher and when finding nothing outside of that one mental aspect, concludes that those other parts must not be real or of value or pertaining to the art. In that light, the martial art's students have put their teacher and their teacher's teacher on a pedestal of not being wrong. It becomes especially religious-like when teachers and their students circle the wagons (like the old western movies) so that the material is rebuffed.

    What's enlightening (pun intended) is that when the entirety of the material is allowed, conceived, and trained, the martial art stops becoming a religion-like entity and transforms into one where the physical and spiritual grow. Each thrives off of the other. As the physical skills and abilities of fudoshin (esoteric training for immovability) grow, that allows the spirit to grow. As Dan has stated, it creates a feeling of "Living freer in the world". The spiritual allows the mind to be free from fears which allows the mental work to transform the body. It becomes a catch-22 in a good way.

    Fudoshin - mental AND physical. While most know only the mental (and there's a point to be made that even then, it's not complete without the other side), few know the physical. That's where Dan's post #25 is relevant. The physical training of fudoshin gave immovability and power in a verifiable physical manner. (See Takuan's saying about immovability regarding the entirety of what that means.) How is that achieved?

    Mark
    [URL="http://www.e-budo.com/www.MarkMurrayBooks.com"]Mark Murray Books[/URL]

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  8. #36
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    Through known physical training models working the body- not mental imagery.
    Dan
    [url=www.bodyworkseminars.org][COLOR=#B22222][B]Ancient traditions * Modern Combatives[/B][/COLOR][B][/url] [/B][COLOR=#B22222][/COLOR]

  9. #37
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    Indeed. Its is now clear we are talking very different things when we are talking "mental imagery." This has been very instructive - look forward to hearing more.
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

  10. #38
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    Hi Kit.
    I'm teaching in Hawaii. More later. Chris and I were just discussing the logo for my system "Sangen" and kurikara the dragon rising around the sword and is origins in front of the sangen. It is an interesting combination of two symbols: in the particular rendering the dragon is yet another symbol of Fudo myo-o, itself using sangen for power as origin.
    Ueshiba called himself and signed documents, "The dragon king" which was yet another connection through Shingon to "Acala Vidya raja" the king of esoteric training to achieve immovability. How was that accomplished? Through Sangen the three origins (heaven/ earth/man) in itself another way of expressing the union of opposites, the working of the two kis. Ueshiba's statement as his takemusu aiki. The birthplace of all techniques. Chris ( being, Chris) brought up an interesting point that at the most popular waterfalls used for misogi in Japan you see a statute of Fudo myo-o.
    Misogi, done correctly had a direct working of heaven/earth/man ( granted it was only one use) that worked the tendon meridians for power. I used past tense since just about everyone in budo, and most assuredly everyone I have met, hasn't any idea what so ever how to work and achieve these states that are tied together and make power. Presently, all you hear about is "feeling" mentally fortified (fudoshin): " They shall not take Tara from me..."
    Thankfully, the practice was far more profound than shoring up the courage and will of our young Scarlet from the Yankee invasion.
    Dan
    [url=www.bodyworkseminars.org][COLOR=#B22222][B]Ancient traditions * Modern Combatives[/B][/COLOR][B][/url] [/B][COLOR=#B22222][/COLOR]

  11. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Harden View Post
    Hi Kit.
    I'm teaching in Hawaii. More later. Chris and I were just discussing the logo for my system "Sangen" and kurikara the dragon rising around the sword and is origins in front of the sangen.
    You named your martial art after Chris Li's dojo?

  12. #40
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    Dan

    Hey thanks at least for checking in when you are busy, wish I was in Hawaii.

    I'll just bullet point it:

    I could not disagree more that Takuan - and others- are not talking about mind. He most assuredly was and I think it is foolish to argue otherwise.

    Now, could he have also been talking physical immovability? Most assuredly and I think you make a fascinating case for it. That is interesting to me. The language, even in translation, certainly seems to point to that.

    This;

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Harden View Post

    Thankfully, the practice was far more profound than shoring up the courage and will of our young Scarlet from the Yankee invasion.
    ...only confirms that we are not talking about the same thing in terms of mind. In fact it confirms we are as far apart as if I was attempting to educate you on IP. It is as fat apart as you feel modern budo folks are from IP, as it is from the flakiness of modern Buddho-Taoist martial fantasies of mental imagery.

    With that, I confess we seem to be making the same points over and over again, Which is not all that interesting to me.

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  14. #41
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    Kit.
    You're still not understanding the completeness of the training, and my points. Although to be clear, you're not understanding Takuan and many other's, both martial and otherwise who wrote about this training.
    To place it in the simplist of terms for clarity they looked at three steps:

    *It is the training of the physical body that starts to change it and how it related to forces. Achieving a balance of yin/yang (a powerful neutral state) that also changes the way you see people and their efforts which seem oddly out of balance eberwhere you looked.
    * it is the achievement of a mind/ body connection and sustaining it in conflict that creates a new thought, a new viewpoint of a powerful non violence,- where enemies efforts seem always out of balance to your enhanced state- that starts to affect how you see the world and yourself in it. We called it a feeling of "living free in the world" in my dojo.
    *several teachings discuss that only then once the mind/body state is achieved does the spirit become changed as well. This constant training giving the inner man this feeling of no conflict with the world, a state of non violence as your body balances violent out-of-balance attacks. All this time making mind/ body connections, control, and neutralizing others, you were really polishing the spirit as well. Your inner man? Starts to change. He sees a new way to function in the world in a peaceful and powerful balanced state. Some teachings state this is when you begin to commune with the God head ( no I am not saying that, just telling you it's mentioned)
    So....
    To be even more clear.
    I am NOT and never did state there is no mental component. I never made that point.
    My point was that you and most others got it wrong that it was fudo- shin only. Understandable as it is obvious they didn't even know the process to get there. They were suffering from a lack of complete information on what was supposed to make that state of fudoshin and the more complete man or budo-ka possible.
    That was
    Fudo myo-o, the process.
    In point of fact fudo shin was supposed to be a result.. OF...Fudo Myo-o.
    I hope this makes my point more clear.
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 31st March 2015 at 20:08.
    Dan
    [url=www.bodyworkseminars.org][COLOR=#B22222][B]Ancient traditions * Modern Combatives[/B][/COLOR][B][/url] [/B][COLOR=#B22222][/COLOR]

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  16. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff Judge View Post
    You named your martial art after Chris Li's dojo?
    Cliffs statement is backward. Chris named his organization... FROM... My direct teachings to him. Which is Sangen. He was hoping -as were many others- that I would put a name on my system. I have fought it for years. I never thought or could have imagined, any of this would be happening in my life. So....I finally agreed.
    But...
    It is my use of the concept sangen, my teaching of it, that is the essence of what we do. Sangen Kai
    Chris was very happy about it.
    Last edited by Cady Goldfield; 4th April 2015 at 01:37.
    Dan
    [url=www.bodyworkseminars.org][COLOR=#B22222][B]Ancient traditions * Modern Combatives[/B][/COLOR][B][/url] [/B][COLOR=#B22222][/COLOR]

  17. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Harden View Post
    Chris was very happy about it.
    I was, and am!

    Best,

    Chris

  18. #44
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    Kit
    I wanted to thank you. We have disagreed and also agreed on many things over the years. We always discuss without insulting (well, at least trying not to) each other over some view points. You are rarely, if ever, presumptuous. You extend an effort to understand someone's points and when in doubt, ask. And you retain a strong personality and presence throughout.
    Thank you again for good internet decorum.
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 31st March 2015 at 21:20.
    Dan
    [url=www.bodyworkseminars.org][COLOR=#B22222][B]Ancient traditions * Modern Combatives[/B][/COLOR][B][/url] [/B][COLOR=#B22222][/COLOR]

  19. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Li View Post
    I was, and am!

    Best,

    Chris
    Well, to be fair. You were right and I should have listened to you back then. As Ellis said. "I take forever to make a decision." It was my professional life. A misstep could cost my clients hundreds of thousands of dollars and months of delays. So..... I'm careful. Or you could say....slow.
    But....yes. Chris was right that I should use the concept as the name.
    Dan
    [url=www.bodyworkseminars.org][COLOR=#B22222][B]Ancient traditions * Modern Combatives[/B][/COLOR][B][/url] [/B][COLOR=#B22222][/COLOR]

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