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Thread: Go ju ittai techniques

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    Default Go ju ittai techniques

    Gassho!

    In what we tend to call go ju ittai techniques (not sure the term is universally used for them), the attacker comes in with a strike or kick (goho) and the defender turns this into a throw (juho), mostly done by 'hooking' in on the attacking arm or catching the leg. Examples include Uwa uke nage, Shita uke geri kote nage, Tembin nage and others.

    An obvious issue with this is that a sensible attack will be thrown from a well-balanced position and quickly retracted, which makes catching the limb very hard, namely for hooking the arm. Obviously in self-defense many attacks won't necessarily be that sensible, but the general problem remains. My question is, how do you deal with that?
    - One might just say that the hook will only work with an imperfect attack and in other cases we simply revert to straightforward goho techniques.
    - Or one might say that it all depends on the timing.
    Any general solutions or observations on this? Any specific tips how to improve the techniques?

    Kesshu,
    ______ Jan.
    Jan Lipsius
    少林寺拳法
    Shorinjikempo
    Humboldt University Berlin Branch

    "An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind." Gandhi

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    Default body principles - hitting center and sticking

    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post
    Gassho!

    In what we tend to call go ju ittai techniques (not sure the term is universally used for them), the attacker comes in with a strike or kick (goho) and the defender turns this into a throw (juho), mostly done by 'hooking' in on the attacking arm or catching the leg. Examples include Uwa uke nage, Shita uke geri kote nage, Tembin nage and others.

    An obvious issue with this is that a sensible attack will be thrown from a well-balanced position and quickly retracted, which makes catching the limb very hard, namely for hooking the arm. Obviously in self-defense many attacks won't necessarily be that sensible, but the general problem remains. My question is, how do you deal with that?
    - One might just say that the hook will only work with an imperfect attack and in other cases we simply revert to straightforward goho techniques.
    - Or one might say that it all depends on the timing.
    Any general solutions or observations on this? Any specific tips how to improve the techniques?

    Kesshu,
    ______ Jan.
    From my limited training in SK this is an area that is either:

    A) Not fully developed

    or

    B) Considered 'high level secret stuff' and not part of the general curriculum or emphasized in the kata

    I've cross trained in a Chinese art to start exploring this.

    First there are body principles for blocking strikes. Most Goho practice you see the blocks are deflecting strikes and kicks without any attempt to effect or disrupt the center of balance of the opponent throwing said punches and kicks. This type of blocking can be done and at a high level it can be done to cause the opponent to be loaded to one leg or another thereby making them unbalance and move in the direction you want to throw.

    Second, Goho practice needs to be trained to get softer and softer on the blocks, understanding more about blocking and moving the strike with 90 degree perpendicular force to the punching limb. Then you learn to 'stick' with soft hands and with good timing and spacing follow the hand back as the opponent retracts their arm (no one but a sorry fighter leaves their punch floating fully extended in space for you to grab).

    So if the block disrupts the opponents center causing a brief moment of unbalance and you stick and follow the limb back then the throw can be made.

    This ability is very difficult to be good at - Shugyo!

    Gasshou,
    Ryan

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    Default

    Gassho!

    Thanks for the technical input!
    Most of these ideas are what is commonly taught in 'go ju ittai techniques', in fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by ryama23 View Post
    From my limited training in SK this is an area that is either:

    A) Not fully developed

    or

    B) Considered 'high level secret stuff' and not part of the general curriculum or emphasized in the kata
    There is no secret stuff in SK. :-)
    The techniques I described are from somewhat higher up curricula, though, starting roughly around nidan. That's when most of the more complicated throws also start – except Okuri gote, of course, the hardest of them all! ;-)

    Kesshu,
    ______ Jan.
    Jan Lipsius
    少林寺拳法
    Shorinjikempo
    Humboldt University Berlin Branch

    "An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind." Gandhi

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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post
    Gassho!

    Thanks for the technical input!
    Most of these ideas are what is commonly taught in 'go ju ittai techniques', in fact.

    There is no secret stuff in SK. :-)
    The techniques I described are from somewhat higher up curricula, though, starting roughly around nidan. That's when most of the more complicated throws also start – except Okuri gote, of course, the hardest of them all! ;-)

    Kesshu,
    ______ Jan.
    I train nidan too, I have the full DVD set showing San Dan as well and it's just variation of the same waza (same principles). The methodology for training the waza are what's typically referred to as passive training methods and not in the context of realistic stick, flow and control principles that I'm referring.

    Okuri gote is a prime example, I see it mostly taught as a whipping action of the arm via momentum... how are you using your elbow during the technique? What's the sequential order of the should, elbow, wrist? How many force vectors are you creating from the grab to your opponents center? what is the line(s) of disruption to your opponents upper center? When bring down into the arm bar are you just pressing down or using multiple force vectors to so the opponent doesn't have a single point to resist against?

    On top of that, how do you pull off an Okuri Gote from a full combative engagement? There's a 'pause' and they suddenly grab your wrist? No, doesn't happen. The passive training has to be done in order to use the body properly, but then there is the component of full application.

    'm not saying I'm an expert, but I've seen and been taught the things above I've listed and I work them into my training. Maybe some SK teachers teach it and some don't. But from the taikai's I've attended it seems to be pretty consistent as to the training method across all instructors.

    Kesshu,
    Ryan

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    Red face An inexperienced's viewpoint

    Gassho.

    Hi, Jan!

    As a kyukenshi, I know this question is high above my technical level. So, in other circumstances I would stay quiet and only read the posts, but.... I am so sad to see this forum diying because of inactivity that I will risk an oppinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post

    My question is, how do you deal with that?
    - One might just say that the hook will only work with an imperfect attack and in other cases we simply revert to straightforward goho techniques.
    - Or one might say that it all depends on the timing.
    Any general solutions or observations on this? Any specific tips how to improve the techniques?
    I don't think theese options are mutually exclusive. For me, it seems that one key for that kind of waza to work is unbalance, and this in turn has much to do with inertia, which comes from position, movement, and weight distribution. So, it is not the same to deal with a boxer's jab than with a "top-down attack with bottle-in-hand". In the first case, the attacker keeps well balanced as he does not transfere the weight forward but, instead, uses the strenght of arm and torso to punch, retracting inmediately.

    The second would be a much more committed kind of attack as possibly he would lean and twist the torso. Even a boxer would generate more inertia and be more unbalanced with a cross punch than with a jab (but, on the other hand, it is a stronger blow).

    So, what I try to say is that go ju ittai techniques probably are better suited for commited attacks where you have more chances to take benefit of the opponent's inertia and also more time to hook in. Of course timing should be a factor but there is also the opportunity that depends on the kind of attack (not necessarily an "imperfect attack", but a committed one)

    As a second thought, Maybe kyusho has also a role to play? I mean, if the blocking action attacks the correct spot in the limb it maybe helps generating the opportunity to hook it...

    As I said, this is a point of view "from outside", as I have only seen go ju ittai waza, but never practiced it.

    Kesshu!
    Fernando Fernández de Bobadilla
    WSKO Almería Branch - SPAIN

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    Gassho!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fernando View Post
    As a kyukenshi, I know this question is high above my technical level. So, in other circumstances I would stay quiet and only read the posts, but.... I am so sad to see this forum diying because of inactivity that I will risk an oppinion.
    Thanks for the answer, Fernando-san!
    Some of my most valuable lessons have come from kyukenshi and minarai! Their viewpoints are often very different from the sometimes overly narrowed of yudansha, and their movements don't follow established patterns that may or may not be realistic. So please continue commenting and asking questions! This is generally a friendly (albeit quiet as of late) forum and there's no reason not to chip in. :-)

    I totally agree on the point about balance and commited attacks. It might, in fact, be the most important thing in this. It leads me to think that a key to these kind of techniques might lie in provoking such an attack …
    I'm not too sure about the value of kyusho here, besides for atemi, since the initial blocks are usually more hooking movements than strikes. But maybe there's some alternative viewpoints on that out there …

    Kesshu,
    ______ Jan.
    Jan Lipsius
    少林寺拳法
    Shorinjikempo
    Humboldt University Berlin Branch

    "An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind." Gandhi

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    The family of techniques that you describe are called goka ken. Ryan's description is very good (apart from his thinking that this isn't developed or is secret!), and is in fact how it should be done in Shorinji Kempo as well as in CMA.

    Usually one wouldn't attempt to catch the arm/leg/limb directly. The attack is blocked and the defender "sticks" to the attack using kakete. Done correctly this can be sufficient to unbalance the attacker and prevent the attack being fully retracted. It also changes the position to where the attack is retracted - think shita uke geri kote nage, where a good punch comes back to the chest but a good "catch" leaves the arm further out with the forearm more vertical.

    Timing is important, but then it's important in all of our techniques And the best way to get better at it is practice!
    Steve Malton
    Shorinji Kempo
    Oxford Dojo

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    Gassho!

    Thanks for the input, Steve-san!
    It's basically what I'm doing as well, though I wouldn't call the defensive movements blocks, because that (to me) sounds to much like a deflective movement. The idea of sticking is clearly very pertinent here and could also be traced as far 'back' in the curriculum as Tsubame gaeshi. The destabilising element is certainly key, IMHO, though I'm still doubtful whether it's possible to do well with a correctly executed attack (i. e. thrown from a balanced position and quickly retracted) – after all, such a punch should be done with good line of balance in the direction of the punch and the opposite as well! Of course, there's ways in SK to make attacks … not good.

    Incidentally, not all of these techniques are in Goka ken. Shita uke geri kote nage, for example, is in Ryuka ken. Interestingly, though, the description of Goka ken in the shodan curriculum reads: "Primarily throws of go ju ittai". (I looked it up. )

    Kesshu,
    ______ Jan.
    Jan Lipsius
    少林寺拳法
    Shorinjikempo
    Humboldt University Berlin Branch

    "An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind." Gandhi

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    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post
    It's basically what I'm doing as well, though I wouldn't call the defensive movements blocks, because that (to me) sounds to much like a deflective movement.
    ...
    The destabilising element is certainly key, IMHO, though I'm still doubtful whether it's possible to do well with a correctly executed attack (i. e. thrown from a balanced position and quickly retracted) – after all, such a punch should be done with good line of balance in the direction of the punch and the opposite as well!
    Ah, but making it a deflective movement changes the line of the attack, which can stop the opponent from being balanced Also, the sticking itself changes the retraction - do it well and the opponent ends up pulling themself off balance when they try to retract.

    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post
    Incidentally, not all of these techniques are in Goka ken. Shita uke geri kote nage, for example, is in Ryuka ken. Interestingly, though, the description of Goka ken in the shodan curriculum reads: "Primarily throws of go ju ittai". (I looked it up. )
    Good point, that does then become a bit of a circular definition! I hadn't noticed that shita uke geri kote nage was ryuka ken; I can sort of see how it fits there, though ryuka ken is normally against being grabbed isn't it? Well, we live and learn!
    Steve Malton
    Shorinji Kempo
    Oxford Dojo

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    Gassho!

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Malton View Post
    Also, the sticking itself changes the retraction - do it well and the opponent ends up pulling themself off balance when they try to retract.
    That's my goal! But … ah, well. *sigh*

    […] ryuka ken is normally against being grabbed isn't it?
    That's the definition.

    Kesshu,
    ______ Jan.
    Jan Lipsius
    少林寺拳法
    Shorinjikempo
    Humboldt University Berlin Branch

    "An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind." Gandhi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Malton View Post
    The family of techniques that you describe are called goka ken. Ryan's description is very good (apart from his thinking that this isn't developed or is secret!), and is in fact how it should be done in Shorinji Kempo as well as in CMA.

    Usually one wouldn't attempt to catch the arm/leg/limb directly. The attack is blocked and the defender "sticks" to the attack using kakete. Done correctly this can be sufficient to unbalance the attacker and prevent the attack being fully retracted. It also changes the position to where the attack is retracted - think shita uke geri kote nage, where a good punch comes back to the chest but a good "catch" leaves the arm further out with the forearm more vertical.

    Timing is important, but then it's important in all of our techniques And the best way to get better at it is practice!
    If this is the case then I wish at the Taikai's they would pair lower yudansha with upper ones during training so we can experience it at a higher level.

    How is the block disrupting the attacker? How is it explained in the SK curriculum? what are the principles?

    Gasshou
    Ryan

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    Quote Originally Posted by ryama23 View Post
    If this is the case then I wish at the Taikai's they would pair lower yudansha with upper ones during training so we can experience it at a higher level.

    How is the block disrupting the attacker? How is it explained in the SK curriculum? what are the principles?

    Gasshou
    Ryan
    to further the question. When you block the strike can you explain how it disrupts the opponents structure and mass? How should it load the weight in the opponents legs?

    Gasshou,
    Ryan

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    Quote Originally Posted by ryama23 View Post
    How is the block disrupting the attacker? How is it explained in the SK curriculum? what are the principles?When you block the strike can you explain how it disrupts the opponents structure and mass? How should it load the weight in the opponents legs?
    I've never read the kyohan, and I've never seen a syllabus that went into that level of detail. At the risk of being "that guy", it's pretty hard to describe it in a few words - that's why we always say you can't learn Shorinji Kempo from a book! But I'll give it a go

    Firstly, it depends on the technique and the attack. Typically the aim is to redirect the attack in a transverse direction, to over-extend the attack by providing extra impetus, or to compromise the withdrawal of the attack by maintaining contact - all of these are used to direct the opponents weight over a balance line just as you would attempt with "regular" juho.

    Take shita geri kote nage as a simple example. The attack is chudan gyaku zuki. Shita uke is used to deflect the attack, and/or hikimi to avoid. Kakete* is applied with the blocking hand such that when the attacker attempts to retract the punch their arm is diverted up and outwards (or the attacking arm is actively drawn that way if the attacker fails to retract!) - the attacker's punching arm ends up with the forearm vertical but rotated outwards (palm surface upwards) and further out from the body away from the ready position near the chest. This draws the attacker's weight out over the usual "black hole" at the third point of the triangle in front of their feet; if especially well done you can also get the heels to lift at this point as well. That's your kuzushi - now just apply otoshi and nage and you're done!

    The process is similar for other techniques such as soto oshi uke nage or osae kannuki nage - just that the blocks, the directions and the immediate effect on the attacker are all a bit different.

    *I've heard kakete described as like trying to pull something in with a wet towel - flop over the arm gently, then snap back. Not sure it that description helps you at all
    Steve Malton
    Shorinji Kempo
    Oxford Dojo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Malton View Post
    I've never read the kyohan, and I've never seen a syllabus that went into that level of detail. At the risk of being "that guy", it's pretty hard to describe it in a few words - that's why we always say you can't learn Shorinji Kempo from a book! But I'll give it a go

    Firstly, it depends on the technique and the attack. Typically the aim is to redirect the attack in a transverse direction, to over-extend the attack by providing extra impetus, or to compromise the withdrawal of the attack by maintaining contact - all of these are used to direct the opponents weight over a balance line just as you would attempt with "regular" juho.

    Take shita geri kote nage as a simple example. The attack is chudan gyaku zuki. Shita uke is used to deflect the attack, and/or hikimi to avoid. Kakete* is applied with the blocking hand such that when the attacker attempts to retract the punch their arm is diverted up and outwards (or the attacking arm is actively drawn that way if the attacker fails to retract!) - the attacker's punching arm ends up with the forearm vertical but rotated outwards (palm surface upwards) and further out from the body away from the ready position near the chest. This draws the attacker's weight out over the usual "black hole" at the third point of the triangle in front of their feet; if especially well done you can also get the heels to lift at this point as well. That's your kuzushi - now just apply otoshi and nage and you're done!

    The process is similar for other techniques such as soto oshi uke nage or osae kannuki nage - just that the blocks, the directions and the immediate effect on the attacker are all a bit different.

    *I've heard kakete described as like trying to pull something in with a wet towel - flop over the arm gently, then snap back. Not sure it that description helps you at all
    Excellent answer Steve, thanks. IMO we all need to try and be "that guy" otherwise the Art will become martially hollow and just dance. "The guy" who can explain with the same principles to the highest level of detail and application will have students who can readily repeat and develop the same quality. My main soap box is that "steal the technique" methods of teaching are good in that the most dedicated students will get it. But in a time when MMA gyms are threatening traditional martial arts I think it's important for more principled explanations in order to keep the attention of new students and develop the qualities.

    As a side note, Kaishin Tsuki can be practiced with a splitting power similar in Hsing I Pi Chuan movement. i.e. it doesn't have to be just deflection of the attacks, but also a controlling method of defense and attack.

    Gassho,
    Ryan

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