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Thread: Difference between Iaijutsu and Iaido " nukitsuke "

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    Default Difference between Iaijutsu and Iaido " nukitsuke "

    Difference between Iaijutsu and Iaido " nukitsuke "

    please answer to this question!!!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by hatori View Post
    Difference between Iaijutsu and Iaido " nukitsuke "
    It's not a matter of a difference between Iaido and Iaijutsu, it's a matter of a difference between one particular ryu and another particular ryu. For example, you could see the same difference between Katori Shinto Ryu and Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu, and both are classified (by some, not all) as iaijutsu. On the other hand, the nukitsuke for some waza would be very similar in both MJER (iaijutsu) and Muso Shinden Ryu (Iaido).

    The best answer to the question of "Why are they different?" is "Because they are different."
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    Ironically, the picture on the right is from Draeger's book "Japanese Swordsmanship", which is the original English book on seitei iai.
    Neil Gendzwill
    Saskatoon Kendo Club

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    Yes, that is ironic, Neil. Also interesting is that out MJER Sensei has our nukitsuke performed pretty much like the right photo, although perhaps with slightly less zanshin for the kohai.

    Ken

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    I know variants inside MJER, depending on ha (shimomura/tanimura) and skill level. Mori Shigeki s. would reach similar to Otake s. photo ,and also lean strongly forward at the hips for the cut. You need to develop a pretty strong hara for this, so juniors are taught to be upright until they can develop the necessary muscle groups.. (You see similar for aikido etc where the back leg and the back is a 'straight line')
    Tim Hamilton

    Why are you reading this instead of being out training? No excuses accepted...

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    I have yudansha experience of Iaido and Menkyo Kaiden in Iaijutsu/ Battojutsu. I can assure the OP that the particular movement shown does not substantiate the difference between these arts. Its a difference of nukitsuke between two schools that you are showing. The KSR image shown has the left hip pulled right out.
    Hyakutake Colin

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    Brian Owens' got it. It's a matter of what school, not Iaido vs. Iaijutsu. However, those two pictures have a very important difference. The one marked iaido is generally a stronger cut, but as you see, he's a very big target as well. The one marked iaijutsu is a shallow cut (suitable for face, neck, or just cutting through shoulder muscles etc. to wound), but he himself is a very small target.

    In a real combat you should be concerned with trying to be as small a target as possible. I don't know if the iaido style one stems from a specific koryu or if it's a part on the "one cut, one kill" idea that became more prevalent when war stopped being a thing in Japan (Edo Jidai and so forth).

    Needless to say, if you're a big target, it is more dangerous even if you have a strong cut, than if you're a small target, and have weaker cuts aimed at soft spots. You don't have to cut bone to kill anyone.
    Bhaktadev
    Mathias Oestensen

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Owens View Post
    The best answer to the question of "Why are they different?" is "Because they are different."
    I don't think that's a good answer, as the differences are very important to understand sword. I don't want to repeat myself, but I guess I'll do it.

    Left is strong cut, but he himself is a big target, therefore vulnerable. The right has weaker cut (but just as deadly) but he is a small target positioned behind his blade, therefore "safe." While stronger cuts can cut deep and through bone, it's not necessary to be able to kill. The weaker cut can easily kill someone if aimed at arteries and/or neck, or it can render the enemy defenseless by cutting the face, eyes or arm. Even if you take a weak cut to the face you're essentially out of the game.

    You're better off with a weaker cut, but safe behind your blade, than opening your self up to attacks in an attempt at literally opening up your opponent.
    Bhaktadev
    Mathias Oestensen

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bhaktadev View Post
    I don't think that's a good answer, as the differences are very important to understand sword. I don't want to repeat myself, but I guess I'll do it.

    Left is strong cut, but he himself is a big target, therefore vulnerable. The right has weaker cut (but just as deadly) but he is a small target positioned behind his blade, therefore "safe." While stronger cuts can cut deep and through bone, it's not necessary to be able to kill. The weaker cut can easily kill someone if aimed at arteries and/or neck, or it can render the enemy defenseless by cutting the face, eyes or arm. Even if you take a weak cut to the face you're essentially out of the game.

    You're better off with a weaker cut, but safe behind your blade, than opening your self up to attacks in an attempt at literally opening up your opponent.
    You cant differentiate the meaning of both photos so simply. Nukitsuke is followed by other movements. There are two many variables to say such a thing. I have seen over forty pages written by one teacher on the purposes and variables of photo 1. As you say it would criticise photo 2 as too much commitment with little chance of a follow up. Then again if 2 is total commitment to a killing blow who cares about a follow up anyway. I use a similar taking the hip out movement to push hard forward to re establish the maai for a second action.

    Lol, in the words of a good teacher of the why's and wherefore's. Don't question it, do it!..... "No good"! Do it again etc. etc.
    Last edited by hyaku; 20th June 2015 at 09:03.
    Hyakutake Colin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Owens
    The best answer to the question of "Why are they different?" is "Because they are different."
    Quote Originally Posted by Bhaktadev View Post
    I don't think that's a good answer, as the differences are very important to understand sword.
    I think in the context of the question, it IS a good answer. He didn't ask "What is a possible reason for these two different ways?" He essentially asked "Why are they being done differently by different schools." Questions on Internet fora that ask "Why..." are seldom productive. Better to just do as your sensei instructs, and let "Why" questions answer themselves in time.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Owens View Post
    I think in the context of the question, it IS a good answer. He didn't ask "What is a possible reason for these two different ways?" He essentially asked "Why are they being done differently by different schools." Questions on Internet fora that ask "Why..." are seldom productive. Better to just do as your sensei instructs, and let "Why" questions answer themselves in time.
    I don't necessarily agree with you there Brian. It's not "why" questions that aren't productive, it is excessively broad questions (such as the one posed in the original post) that are generally non-productive. If he had asked "Why would nukitsuke be done in such as manner as to push your hips off line rather than having them involved in the cut?" That question could have provoked quite a bit of discussion regarding possible scenarios, training outcomes, and possible thought processes in various schools because it is a very specific question that is easily ponderable. To simply ask why they're different is much too broad of a question to elicit anything but vague answers in my opinion.
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

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    Definite non-issue that could be explained by variances in ryu, teacher or even lineage. Even within the ryu if a particular teacher decides a nukitsuke should look a certain way, you'll see variations.

    For instance, my lineage (and the lineage of Eric Tribe in the photo OP posted) is that of Yamamoto Harusuke. MJER. Seeing video of Yamamoto-hanshi, he has a clear and huge Shimomura-ha influence in his iai. His left hip is pulled back fairly far during nukitusuke, and his left leg rotates toward and perhaps even past the center line in doing so.

    These days, not even one of Yamamoto-hanshi's direct students does that. I'm referring Atsumi Hatenaka, who advises eastern Canada. When she joined us in 2006, her posture during nukitsuke was closer to that of Yamamoto's, but she's since lessened it somewhat. Now it certainly isn't the squarish, Tanimura-ha posture my teacher teaches (Goyo Ohmi, 7DK), but something in between. Ohmi-sensei is Eric's teacher's teacher.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Hodge View Post
    Definite non-issue that could be explained by variances in ryu, teacher or even lineage. Even within the ryu if a particular teacher decides a nukitsuke should look a certain way, you'll see variations.

    For instance, my lineage (and the lineage of Eric Tribe in the photo OP posted) is that of Yamamoto Harusuke. MJER. Seeing video of Yamamoto-hanshi, he has a clear and huge Shimomura-ha influence in his iai. His left hip is pulled back fairly far during nukitusuke, and his left leg rotates toward and perhaps even past the center line in doing so.

    These days, not even one of Yamamoto-hanshi's direct students does that. I'm referring Atsumi Hatenaka, who advises eastern Canada. When she joined us in 2006, her posture during nukitsuke was closer to that of Yamamoto's, but she's since lessened it somewhat. Now it certainly isn't the squarish, Tanimura-ha posture my teacher teaches (Goyo Ohmi, 7DK), but something in between. Ohmi-sensei is Eric's teacher's teacher.
    Hatakenaka Sensei will tell you that we have to follow our sensei's way. it's not a matter of doing for example A Sensei's Nukitsuke, B Sensei's Kiritsuke, C Sensei's Chiburui etc. One adds one individualism and character after many years of practice. If I remember she told me she first practiced in Tosa when she was 12. Lol So I guess you guys have to do it the Hatakenaka way if she considers a small adaptation of a grey area.
    Last edited by hyaku; 15th February 2016 at 13:09.
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


    http://www.hyoho.com

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