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Thread: Is this group so boring because anyone with something of interest to say is banned?

  1. #46
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    Default Yes we can!

    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post
    It seems quite unreasonable that the same thing couldn't be found in Chinese MA.
    Saerch for chin na (qin na) to see many similarities and common principles

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-59-hs0MpHI

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6XmOUsArPE
    Kari Maki-Kuutti

    www.shorinjikempo.fi

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  3. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post
    Gassho!

    Thanks for the answer and especially for the interview source!
    This version is by and large what I've heard several times before, namely the claim from Hakko Ryu that Kaiso incorporated their techniques into SK. It would still be great to have a source from the other side concerning this. AFAIK, this claim had already been made during Kaiso's life time, therefore I'm assuming there must be something in his writings or an interview etc. dealing with it – probably in Japanese only.
    I've also come across similar claims from other styles with far less (possible) merit over the years.

    As to the technical side of things, similarity doesn't say much, unfortunately. As the common saying goes, a wrist only bends in so many ways. Aikido uses basically the same lines, so do Hapkido and several other styles from what I hear (and occasionally see). It seems quite unreasonable that the same thing couldn't be found in Chinese MA.

    Kesshu,
    ______ Jan.
    Of course histories can be debated in many ways. Personally I don't mind if parts of Shorinji Kempo don't all come from Chinese sources. Having trained in both Chinese and Japanese arts, the Shorinji Kempo method of training Qin Na (i.e. joint locking and seizing) is not similar to other Chinese systems that I've seen, but I'm sure there are some where it is.

    What I mean by that in particular is it's not the technical aspect as to how a joint locks, but the method of how you 'get' there to applying the lock in the first place.

    Jujutsu from the Japanese technical side tend to learn the locks from a passive means, i.e. someone seizes your wrist, then you apply the lock or takedown technique. This seems historically a result of the samurai culture - seizing the sword hand before the draw, etc.

    Additionally the method of teaching it - memorization of technique of various types and practicing them. Very Japanese.

    Chinese methods are body centric where by the focus is on a body method form and movement that can flow into a variety of technique. Sticking quality of the hands to learn when to seize and when to let go.

    Hapkido has Daito Ryu roots as does Aikido and IMO Shorinji. The Kyohon has pictures of people practicing the Juho wearing hakama from kneeling position - that is not Chinese.

    Gassho,
    Ryan

  4. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kari MakiKuutti View Post
    Saerch for chin na (qin na) to see many similarities and common principles

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-59-hs0MpHI

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6XmOUsArPE
    Yep and note HOW the lock is achieved on the very first one! - the Monk throwing the punch gains the Qin Na lock - it's called bridging and sticking. Your strikes are thrown not necessarily to strike but to cause a reaction so that you can flow into a lock or takedown. The joint lock is the same yes, but in actual training the focus would be on the body method to achieve the correct reaction.

    BTW - I am ALL in for Shorinji Kempo training - I still do it. My sensei here has shown me wonderful improvements to applying these joint locks effectively. A post I made previously is that I don't see the bridging methodology trained in SK or even know if it exists. So I train other arts to gain that. Quite frankly most of the Chinese stuff or Silat that I've encountered their locks are not well applied.

    -Ryan
    Last edited by ryama23; 11th August 2015 at 20:07. Reason: more info added.

  5. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post
    This is probably the interview in question. The story is second hand and doesn't come across as very convincing, I'm afraid. It would really be great to have first hand sources from people who were there at the time!

    JL
    I wouldn't call this second hand as it's the son of the Hakko Ryu founder. Koryu arts or more Gendai arts that act like Koryu such as Hakko Ryu keep scrolls that all students must sign. Doshin So is on the scrolls under his original name. As for the disparaging comments about Doshin So and the level achieved - THAT I would roll my eyes at. It is so common to trash talk another. Frankly Hakko Ryu has little following compared to SK. So if you're the son and current headmaster of Hakko Ryu and you see what Doshin So built there is clearly jealousy involved in his opinion.
    Last edited by ryama23; 11th August 2015 at 20:08. Reason: more info

  6. #50
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    Gassho!

    Quote Originally Posted by ryama23 View Post
    Personally I don't mind if parts of Shorinji Kempo don't all come from Chinese sources.
    Personally, my appreciation for SK as it is today is completely independent from where it comes from.
    I'm just generally very interested in the historical side of things – it's my area of studies, after all.

    The technical details given here are very interesting!
    I remember a while back a junior kenshi came on here feeling very troubled because on another forum he had posted videoclips about SK and the people there refused to accept it as a CMA, their (quoting from memory) "resident expert on Chinese martial arts" saying that "it looked Japanese" to him.

    Kesshu,
    ______ Jan.
    Jan Lipsius
    少林寺拳法
    Shorinjikempo
    Humboldt University Berlin Branch

    "An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind." Gandhi

  7. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post
    Gassho!

    Personally, my appreciation for SK as it is today is completely independent from where it comes from.
    I'm just generally very interested in the historical side of things – it's my area of studies, after all.

    The technical details given here are very interesting!
    I remember a while back a junior kenshi came on here feeling very troubled because on another forum he had posted videoclips about SK and the people there refused to accept it as a CMA, their (quoting from memory) "resident expert on Chinese martial arts" saying that "it looked Japanese" to him.

    Kesshu,
    ______ Jan.
    I agree. When it comes to martial arts I'm a research nerd. As for Shorinji Kempo my interest has always been in what Doshin So built. He grabbed parts from different styles to build an art that he saw as best for developing a well rounded person and martial artist. Is it perfect? Of course not, nothing is. I think it's valuable to understand where the styles parts came from because they reveal new things to find in the art.

    For example there are body training and internal training methods from both the Chinese and Japanese arts that SK incorporated, I look for them to make my technique and body that much better.

    Gassho,
    Ryan

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  9. #52
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    Default

    So, when it comes to martial arts you have to ask yourself what is important in a leader/teacher. Is it being able to win 50 street fights or being able to create a global organization of millions?

  10. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirk.bruere View Post
    So, when it comes to martial arts you have to ask yourself what is important in a leader/teacher. Is it being able to win 50 street fights or being able to create a global organization of millions?
    If you describe what you do as "martial arts" then it should be effective for self defense. Neither of what you described is important to me in a leader. It's about self improvement, health, confidence in effective technique. That at the end of training you feel good. Simple as that. If that is the case the organization will grow itself and if that is the case you'll probably be ok to defend yourself or safely get away from an altercation.

    My 2 cents.
    Gassho
    Ryan

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  12. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryama23 View Post
    This is where I disagree. WHY would you ever focus a connection point to someone's knee?! How is that related to someone 's center?

    Aikikai Aikido claims connection with the opponent, but fundamentally seems flawed IME.

    Disclaimer here I train Aiki from the perspective of Aiki Sangenkai bodyworks, which I suck at and I'll probably get trounced at the next workshop for posting here like an expert. I also train Chinese internals, so my perspective is different from Aikikai Aikido.

    Shoulder, elbow wrist should be supported by dantian (6 direction energy ). Expansion from dantian has to occur first to the point of contact, then spiraling from shoulder elbow wrist to create multiple vectors and effect balance.

    Target a knee? Closest I could see is targeting a vector to a hip to jam a kick.

    IMO, SK has the nearest building block to start developing this with it's kagite shuho element. Aikido does it's "blending" almost immediately, which more often than not results in zero connection and therefore is more about a practice of timing and spacing than balance break.
    I love disagreement as it creates great learning opportunities in my opinion. My view of things is always evolving as I learn. In the specific example about connection to the knee, what I was getting at at is that when I first started Aikido I treated that technique as a pain compliance technique. As my views and ability evolved I was able to learn to lock the shoulder and use that connection to manipulate uke's balance and break their balance through their knee, as opposed relying on pain compliance. Considering what you wrote, it is obvious to me that taking that route is simply one possible avenue, but it was a real eye-opener for me when I first started making that connection.

    I am still learning how to move my body properly in Shorinji Kempo. I find the body movements very different from what I am used to, but am enjoying the practice very much.

    Cheers,

    Steve

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