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Thread: Is this group so boring because anyone with something of interest to say is banned?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by sean dixie View Post
    ... The settlement with WSKO has never been discussed within the BSKF due to legally binding confidentiality clauses. ...
    Why am I not surprised of this. Whatever the reason for non-discussion is.

    But BSKF was not a party in this settlement?
    Kari Maki-Kuutti

    www.shorinjikempo.fi

  2. #32
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    You can't leave it can you Kari? No, no, no, the BSKF had nothing whatsoever to do with the settlement. Period. There is no agreement of any form between BSKF and WSKO, no settlement to which the BSKF is a party. The BSKF is not contractually obliged to WSKO. The BSKF was not involved in any way, shape or form, in Mizuno sensei's case.

    I suspect that this may be your source of information, even if you inflate the numbers.

    日頃より、少林寺拳法の発展にご尽力いただき、ありがとうございます。
    Thank you for your continued effort in developing Shōrinji Kempō.

     さて、元英国指導員、元WSKO理事であった水野為男氏が、不特定多数各方面に、「英国高等裁判所の最終判断で、少林寺拳法は固有名称だという主張が退けられた」と言う間違った情報発信を行っており ます。

    There is erroneous information about from the former instructor of the British Shōrinji Kempō Federation and former WSKO board member, Mr. Tameo Mizuno, that the high court in the United Kingdom held the words “Shōrinji Kempō” were not a proper noun.

     本訴訟は、水野氏側の商標登録の是非に関するものであって、少林寺拳法の固有名称の是非をめぐるものではありませんので、水野氏側からの誤った発信に惑わされないようご注意ください。経緯については、以下をご覧 ください。

    The law suit concerned Mr. Mizuno’s trademark registration and not whether the term Shōrinji Kempō was a proper noun. Please do not be misled by Mr. Mizuno’s mistaken announcements. For further information please refer to the following.
      
    1、BSKFの商標登録の件 Registration of the BSKF trade mark

     BSKFが、「BSKFの独自のマークとBritish Shorinji Kempo Federation」の結合商標を英国特許庁に申請した為、SHORINJI KEMPO UNITYは正式に異議を申し立てました。

    BSKF claimed that the registration of the combination of the BSKF mark and the words British Shōrinji Kempō Federation has been applied for in Britain. Shōrinji Kempō Unity has officially filed an objection.

     しかし、「英国内における商標の使用実績が不十分である」という理由などにより審査官により却下されました。

    However it was held that as there was insufficient use in the UK by SKU the appeal was rejected.

     そこで、SHORINJI KEMPO UNITYは、ロンドン高等裁判所へ控訴しましたが、2014年10月14日、この控訴は棄却されました。

    Shōrinji Kempō Unity filed an appeal in the UK High Court but this was rejected on the 14th October 2014.

     英国及び世界中でSHORINJI KEMPO UNITYが管理する「SHORINJI KEMPO/少林寺拳法」の権利は現在も有効です。今回の英国における控訴棄却の判断は、誤った判断によるものであり、今後もBSKFの商標登録は無効であることを主張して参ります。

    The United Kingdom and world rights to "SHORINJI KEMPO / 少林寺拳法" which are managed by Shōrinji Kempō Unity are still valid. The current rejection of the appeal in the UK, is due to a wrong judgment, and we will continue to insist that it is an invalid trademark registration of BSKF.

    2、水野氏の旅費返還請求訴訟の件 Refund of Mr. Mizuno’s fraudulent travel expense claim

     本件は、水野氏がWSKO経費で会議等のために航空機を利用した経費を水増しして、請求した証拠が明らかになり、訴訟となったものです。

    Mr. Mizuno was sued for fraudulent travel expense claims made to WSKO.

     2011年12月に、ロンドン中央国家裁判所へ「水野為男氏に対する旅費返還請求」訴訟を提起した所、間もなく水野氏側より和解要請がありました。

    When a claim was filed with a central London court in December 2011 for the fraudulent travel expenses Mr. Mizuno immediately requested settlement.

     双方の法的代理人が交渉に入り、水野氏がWSKOに20,000英ポンド(約340万円)を支払うことで合意をし、全額が支払われ、本件は収束しました。

    Negotiations were started by legal representatives from both sides and Mr. Mizuno agreed to pay 20,000 British pounds (about 3.4 million yen) to WSKO, the full amount was paid and therefore this matter has been settled.

    (備 考)NB
    ※BSKFとは、「British Shorinji Kempo Federation」の略称で、かつてはWSKOの正式な会員でしたが、現在は少林寺拳法世界連合(WSKO)のメンバーではありません。

    BSKF is the abbreviation of British Shōrinji Kempō Federation which used to be a member of WSKO. However, they are currently not a member of WSKO.

    ! 英国の正式なWSKOメンバーは、「UKSKF(UK Shorinji Kempo Federation)」です。

    The official WSKO member organization for the United Kingdom is the UKSKF (United Kingdom Shōrinji Kempō Federation).

    以 上

    2014年10月21日21st October 2014
    一般社団法人 SHORINJI KEMPO UNITY 専務理事
    Shorinji Kempo Unity Senior Managing Director
    少林寺拳法世界連合 事務総長
    WSKO Administration General Manager
    川島 一浩
    Kazuhiro Kawashima

    There's only one thing that needs correcting about this letter: all of it. Whether or not "shorinji kempo" was held to be a generic term is a matter of public record, and unequivocally, UK law states that it is, unanimously, by one IPO officer and five judges over four hearings. The idea that it is a "wrong judgment" is not even sophistry. It's just incorrect.

    http://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKIntelP/2013/o25813.pdf
    http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Ch/2014/285.html

    Attachment 10863

    Sean, there are no confidentiality clauses in the settlements. We're free to talk about what we like. I try not to talk about it, but when egregious statements like Kari's are made on a public forum then some retort is required. Mizuno sensei did not immediately request settlement. He denied all the claims and rejected both the substance of the claim and that the UK is the correct jurisdiction to decide the matter. He filed an objection with the court. In accordance with the UK litigation rules both parties agreed to hold without prejudice talks to settle matters. It was agreed by both parties in early 2012, without any admission of who was correct, that the amounts involved were far less than the sums either party would expend litigating, and that the parties would seek to find a compromise. WSKO then put this matter on hold saying that they would not settle it until the trademark issue was resolved as they wanted a “global settlement” - in other words they were trying to exert pressure in the trademark case this way. They dragged this out until 30th November 2013, when suddenly they said they wanted to settle to avoid disproportionate costs and proposed a settlement figure which was agreed upon by Mizuno sensei for exactly that reason.

    The important point in the letter above is "this matter has been settled". Why do you continue to harass someone and insinuate wrongdoing, when even your own side say it's settled? It's settled, so leave it alone.

    Dirk expressed the view that this was badly dealt with. He's not wrong.
    David Dunn
    Cambridge Dojo
    BSKF

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  4. #33
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    Name:  Court of Appeal rejection of Unity's appeal.jpg
Views: 460
Size:  121.5 KB

    Trying again with the attachment.
    David Dunn
    Cambridge Dojo
    BSKF

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  6. #34
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    I stand corrected Dave, I was convinced there was a clause there. Oh well, thanks for posting the settlements.
    Sean Dixie

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    40000 -> 20000. My error, remembered it wrong.
    However my mistake elicited a reaction revealing that some details of this settlement are known at some level in BSKF.

    If someone agrees to pay 20000 pounds in a settlement it implies to me that there is some good reason for it. Wrongdoing or other?

    No confidentiality clause? Then the reason for not discussing this in BSKF must be for other reasons. Understandable.
    Kari Maki-Kuutti

    www.shorinjikempo.fi

  8. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kari MakiKuutti View Post
    40000 -> 20000. My error, remembered it wrong.
    If someone agrees to pay 20000 pounds in a settlement it implies to me that there is some good reason for it. Wrongdoing or other?

    No confidentiality clause? Then the reason for not discussing this in BSKF must be for other reasons. Understandable.
    I'll say it again. The reason for the settlement is to prevent the escalation of costs for both sides. It's how civil litigation actions go in the UK. Before the court it simply means "we sorted it out and there is no assertion of right or wrong by either side".

    As for not discussing it, why would we, except so far as it related to the TM dispute? Which was not at all, in the end.
    David Dunn
    Cambridge Dojo
    BSKF

  9. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    I'll say it again. The reason for the settlement is to prevent the escalation of costs for both sides. It's how civil litigation actions go in the UK. Before the court it simply means "we sorted it out and there is no assertion of right or wrong by either side".

    As for not discussing it, why would we, except so far as it related to the TM dispute? Which was not at all, in the end.
    The settlement is related to your chief instructor (T.M.). Not the TM (Trademark) dispute.
    I understand why it is not discussed in BSKF.
    Kari Maki-Kuutti

    www.shorinjikempo.fi

  10. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by jailess View Post
    Hi Steve, welcome to E-Budo. I've been a Sleeper Kenshi a long time myself!

    I'm interested in your statement that the movements are particularly different in SK compared to Aikido, because I've always viewed them as reasonably similar in terms of techniques, if not movement. I acknowledge that the Kendo-style stance of Aikido is dissimilar to our more varied stances, but the techniques I always saw as the same thing seen through different lenses.

    In fact, I've always been a little jealous of (Aikikai) Aikido's grouping of techniques into variants of Ikkyo, Nikkyo, Sankyo, etc. whilst I have to deal with 'this is Gyaku gote, only here the opponent's left bumcheek is 5mm higher than before', and other variants I am forced to learn as I proceed up the Dan grades.

    As for Ukemi... IMHO, anyone who isn't doing it in a way that can be done on concrete (i.e. the Parkour guys' way) ain't doing it right.
    Aikido's grouping of techniques into Ikkyo, nikkyo and sankyo are groupings based on a unifying principle of movement.

    Shorinji Kempo 's Juho comes from Hakko Ryu, which is an offshoot of Daito Ryu, which in turn is the basis of Aikido.

    Gyaku gote, kote nuki, oshi gote, Maki Gote and more all share the same root principles around footwork.

    Some interesting research, read Ellis Amdur's book Hidden in Plain Sight. The Daito Ryu opening of the hand upon being grabbed is kagite shuho, but is named differently in Daito Ryu. Many modern aikido practioners no longer do this and it is a training method to connect the point of contact to your center and train 6 direction energy. Hence you pull or push when grabbing, the internal aspect that SK mostly ignores is you can use that pull/push with kagite shuho to engage what the Chinese call dantian and mingmen.

    Aiki is internal arts training according to some and modern aikido has it all wrong and doesn't train properly.

    Ukemi will seem different in that SK Juho tends to be a centripetal action to cause kuzushi or balance break. This aligns with Daito Ryu I've cross trained with. Centripetal can be more brutal because you're limiting the escape path. At the same time the waza can be modified for more centrifugal takedowns, which allows for easier ukemi, i.e. Aikido method.

    Gassho
    Ryan
    Last edited by ryama23; 5th August 2015 at 19:18. Reason: Add more specifics

  11. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirk.bruere View Post
    Anyone care to comment on our Dear Leader's extravagant tastes, as befits the CEO of a large Japanese multinational corporation?
    This is only natural in martial arts especially handed along family lines. The 2nd generation looks to profit.

    It will take a few Kenshi to maintain the torch of what's real for the day when the Art seeks its roots again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ryama23 View Post
    This is only natural in martial arts especially handed along family lines. The 2nd generation looks to profit.

    It will take a few Kenshi to maintain the torch of what's real for the day when the Art seeks its roots again.
    I will say, Yuuki So took some time and talked with my wife for a while about the building of Hombu, how Doshin So had Buddhist divination done to select the site and other stuff. She is very nice.

  13. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve View Post
    Hi Jame and thanks for the welcome!

    Everything I say has to be taken in context, so I may very well be describing the beginner version of things being taught to me vs what gets taught later. Also I probably have a total of 20 hour Shorinji Kempo training which qualifies me to say basically nothing.

    We called them Ikkajo, Nikajo, Sankajo.. Etc. at first blush what I saw was very similar. But where I am now in experiencing Juho waza, is that it very much focuses on the joint in question, and not on the "connection" between Uke and Shite (sorry Aikido terms.)

    When I say connection, I mean that in the most literal terms. For example, when performing nikajo, I always targeted my opponents knee. The wrist, forearm, shoulder connection always served as a connection to manipulate uke's balance, not as a pain compliance point. (Well not always, but as I gained proficiency). In my previous post I was speaking more towards the goho and body movements, but now I am starting to see some of the Juho differences as well. The Shorinji Techniques so far seem very effective but also seem very focused in pain compliance. Perhaps as I work my way up I will see them differently.

    Honestly, for now it is fantastic. Shorinji Kempo is giving me beginner's mind towards many things which is important, but I do expect at certain points, that I will hit cross roads that further my understanding of both.

    Regarding ukemi, concrete used to be no problem . But I am too fat for that now! Try me again in 6 months .

    Cheers,

    Steve van Maanen
    This is where I disagree. WHY would you ever focus a connection point to someone's knee?! How is that related to someone 's center?

    Aikikai Aikido claims connection with the opponent, but fundamentally seems flawed IME.

    Disclaimer here I train Aiki from the perspective of Aiki Sangenkai bodyworks, which I suck at and I'll probably get trounced at the next workshop for posting here like an expert. I also train Chinese internals, so my perspective is different from Aikikai Aikido.

    Shoulder, elbow wrist should be supported by dantian (6 direction energy ). Expansion from dantian has to occur first to the point of contact, then spiraling from shoulder elbow wrist to create multiple vectors and effect balance.

    Target a knee? Closest I could see is targeting a vector to a hip to jam a kick.

    IMO, SK has the nearest building block to start developing this with it's kagite shuho element. Aikido does it's "blending" almost immediately, which more often than not results in zero connection and therefore is more about a practice of timing and spacing than balance break.

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    Gassho!

    Quote Originally Posted by ryama23 View Post
    Shorinji Kempo 's Juho comes from Hakko Ryu, which is an offshoot of Daito Ryu, which in turn is the basis of Aikido.
    According to Kaiso, it comes from Chinese martial arts. Are there sources that prove otherwise, since this was stated as fact, rather than opinion?

    Kesshu,
    ______ Jan.
    Jan Lipsius
    少林寺拳法
    Shorinjikempo
    Humboldt University Berlin Branch

    "An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind." Gandhi

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    Hi Jan,
    Stanley Pranin did an interesting interview with Ryuho Okuyama (Hakko Ryu Nidai Soke) a few years back (you can probably read it in the Aikido Journal), where he discussed Kaiso’s experience studying Hakko Ryu before founding Shorinji Kempo. Apparently Kaiso achieved a Ni Dan in the art. This is pretty common knowledge in Japan, but I’ve found that most ShorinjiKempo sensei here either dismiss the influence outright, or gloss over it somehow.

    As someone with some experience in ShorinjiKempo (5th dan) and Hakko Ryu (1st dan), it is my personal opinion that ShoriniKempo Juho and Seiho were strongly influenced by Hakko Ryu. Some of the techniques look identical. However, the manner in which they are practiced and applied are quite different. I think Kaiso took what he learned in HakkoRyu and simply developed it in a different direction.

    For what it’s worth, I found HakkoRyu philosophically and technically fascinating, I would have continued if I didn’t move to an “inaka” area without a dojo.

    Cheers,
    Mike Johnson

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  17. #44
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    Gassho!

    Thanks for the answer and especially for the interview source!
    This version is by and large what I've heard several times before, namely the claim from Hakko Ryu that Kaiso incorporated their techniques into SK. It would still be great to have a source from the other side concerning this. AFAIK, this claim had already been made during Kaiso's life time, therefore I'm assuming there must be something in his writings or an interview etc. dealing with it – probably in Japanese only.
    I've also come across similar claims from other styles with far less (possible) merit over the years.

    As to the technical side of things, similarity doesn't say much, unfortunately. As the common saying goes, a wrist only bends in so many ways. Aikido uses basically the same lines, so do Hapkido and several other styles from what I hear (and occasionally see). It seems quite unreasonable that the same thing couldn't be found in Chinese MA.

    Kesshu,
    ______ Jan.
    Jan Lipsius
    少林寺拳法
    Shorinjikempo
    Humboldt University Berlin Branch

    "An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind." Gandhi

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    This is probably the interview in question. The story is second hand and doesn't come across as very convincing, I'm afraid. It would really be great to have first hand sources from people who were there at the time!

    JL
    Jan Lipsius
    少林寺拳法
    Shorinjikempo
    Humboldt University Berlin Branch

    "An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind." Gandhi

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