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Thread: The Origins of Ne Waza

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    Thumbs up The Origins of Ne Waza

    I have looked at so many sources of information on the web concerning this subject. As I pointed when I started my account, my aim is to gather information as a means of research to try and piece together the exact chronological events over the history of Judo.

    Much has been said from threads concerning newaza. But a comprehensive and collective brainstorm approach has not yet been done to piece out how newaza was formed.

    I looked at some of the sources and its discusses that Kano took the information from the Kito ryu school of Jujutsu. Another source, which is the most popular one, claims that the Fusen Ryu school of Jujutsu was the official source that Kano took the newaza part of Judo.

    The from the battles, to the techniques, to the historical data, I would have to ask everyone who knows the history of newaza to contribute in this thread. My goal is to have a conclusive and concise history that shaped the sport of newaza Judo.

    If there are threads that I need to know in this forum that is of value, I am open to know what they are.

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    Talking

    Just a follow-up, please tell me what other sources of information, other than the internet, that I should know to piece out the specifics of newaza's origins.

    If you have suggestions of books, articles, clippings, whatever, now is the time for ppl. to contribute in this discussion.

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    I believe you will have to go into feudal samurai days and systems to get to your goal. Kosen Judo would be an avenue to exhaust also.
    Dave Gorden "If wishes were horses, all beggars would ride".---Frank Osten

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    If you go to the "new" Judo forum, you will find some folks who have looked into that. The 'old" Judo forum is messed up, there were also some good discussion there, but good look finding anything.

    KOSEN is a ruleset(subset) of Kodokan Judo.

    Considerable research has been done. Another source would be Matt Phillips, who looked into the whole "Fusen Ryu" thing.

    Ah, here you go, a link to a discussion we had at bullshido.net
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=123572

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    The OP was banned some time ago.... but oooh, that looks like an interesting thread. I've not been successful at finding good documentation on Fusen Ryu.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mkrueger View Post
    The OP was banned some time ago.... but oooh, that looks like an interesting thread. I've not been successful at finding good documentation on Fusen Ryu.
    Search it here, too, there has been discussion of it.
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

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    Thanks. Lots to read and think about.

    I recently acquired a reprint of a 1935 shuai jiao manual (I believe it started as a provincial police manual, but that reference is not at my finger tips at the moment) by Tong Zhong Yi.

    These photos in particular were interesting from the stand point of knowledge of and application of ground-fighting (i.e. newaza) at this point in history.

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    In particular from the left, the use of the close guard against a striking opponent. The application of a rear naked choke in the center and then the use of "mount" on the right.

    The author makes an interesting statement in his foreward. This is Tim Cartmell's translation.

    The present techniques and methods of Japanese Judo are inferior to our country's art. Victory is not decided by being thrown to the ground; Judo fighters must continue to fight for control on the ground until one of the fighters is exhausted. You can see the difference here.
    Nationalist ideologies/prejudice aside... there are two interesting things to me here:

    1. The author apparently was unaware of newaza use in Judo.
    2. There was some limited ground-fighting being taught in shuai jiao in 1935.

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    Correction. The quote from the foreword was not written by Tong Zhong Yi, but by a man named Chen Jiaxuan.

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    Hmmm - it seems to me to be the opposite: That it is Judo fighters that must fight on the ground, that they can't have a decisive victory from a throw, and I think the examples given are shuai jiao practitioners trying to show Judo newaza...
    Kit Leblanc

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    Kosen was for school kids. Kosen I believe concentrated on mat work because getting slammed is prone to more injuries. The whole BJJ culture and thinking it was derived from Kosen did a lot to warp it's 'history' IMO.

    The last Judo dojo I trained at did the same thing with the very young kids. (5-8) They had them focus a lot on osaekomi waza.
    Ed Boyd

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hissho View Post
    Hmmm - it seems to me to be the opposite: That it is Judo fighters that must fight on the ground, that they can't have a decisive victory from a throw, and I think the examples given are shuai jiao practitioners trying to show Judo newaza...
    Hmm, that's a good point. I hadn't thought of it that way. I'll have to go look at the Chinese text in more detail and context.

    However, I agree with your second point. The book looks very similar in some parts to the Hong Kong Police manual put out by Fairbairn in the 1910s which stated it's techniques to be derivative of "jui-jitsu." [sic]

    The rest of the book certainly made me think of Judo on numerous occasions, but I have to be careful that this isn't my own cognitive bias seeing what it wants to see.

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    As I recall - and its been a LONG time since I paid much attention to this kinda stuff - Kosen was more about the rules allowing team competitions and draws than it was so much about injuries. But again its been a while. BJJ history is always a bit suspect.

    Shuai Jiao has some big differences with Judo- though the jackets look like some of the really old short sleeve jackets you sometimes see with "jui-jitsu" (heh)and old Judo keikogi. Less cloth grabbing, though its there. More akin to sumo with cloth. Tim Cartmell (the translator and my teacher) teaches Judo throws (via BJJ) with some subtle differences that are more Shuai Jiao in nature, and multiple throws that are not found in Judo but are shuai Jiao or shuai Jiao applications from other arts. These are done with no cloth grips or belt grips, usually.

    But its not newaza, so...
    Kit Leblanc

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    That's in part why I was surprised to find ANY depictions of groundfighting in a shuai jiao manual! Both the jackets and techniques look to share more similarities with Mongolian wrestling.

    If you're interested and haven't seen it already there's a Chinese pseudo-documentary here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPqE3JzGTEA) that has three guys, one who is a shuai jiao practitioner and another who practices BJJ get an introduction to Mongolian wrestling.

    Thanks for the insight and that's pretty cool your teacher is Tim Cartmell. I appreciate his book translations and his bringing some Chinese "flavor" to BJJ.

    But yes... not judo newaza, so back on topic then.

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    Mongolian wrestling? I think I have to google this one.

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    Why was the OP banned?

    I've done some work on this and have a theory of the development of judo newaza that so far fits. No major drawbacks but there is very little prime source. Everything is secondary or reading between the lines.

    Lance Gatling
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    Lance Gatling ガトリング
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    Long as we're making up titles, call me 'The Duke of Earl'

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