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Thread: Sport Jujutsu - is it a Oxymoron?

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    Exclamation Sport Jujutsu - is it a Oxymoron?

    In respect to the thread concerning the question "BJJ - is it really jujutsu?", I like to open this discussion in a rather objective tone.

    Jujutsu, as we know, is one of the disciplines in the bujutsu bugei used by the Samurai. When the Meiji-era began in 1868, its use from approximately 100 ryu were outlawed from use in Japan. What turned out to be a martial that concentrates on killing methods, it has relegated to a more civilian/practised method for physical strength.

    Fast forward to the events that shaped Kano jujutsu or better known as Kodokan Judo, I have stumbled into this terminology that was popularized by John Danaher in his book "mastering jujitsu" back in 2003.

    To make my intro short, my point in opening this thread is simple: its to point out that THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A TERM CALLED SPORT JUJUTSU!! It is an Oxymoron and by definition, a combat-sport (hence sport) cannot be linked into a non-sporting martial art such as Jujutsu!

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    Welcome to e-budo!

    I've personally never heard of the term "sport jujutsu" myself, so I looked it up. Looks like some organization (the JJIF?) has created competition rules for their own form of jujutsu. Therefore, it seems to me that your basic premise is in error. There is indeed a term called "sport jujutsu".

    Jujutsu, 柔術, as we know, is simply a descriptive phrase referring to Japanese unarmed arts. There is not now, nor has there ever been, a strict definition of what constitutes jujutsu. For that matter, the Japanese language precludes strict definitions for just about anything.

    Now you could make arguments over the fact that "sport jujutsu" has no basis in traditional Japanese arts, or that "sport jujutsu" is ineffective or useless for the original use of jujutsu. You can argue that it shouldn't exist, but you can't argue that it doesn't exist, since those actually doing it would disagree.

    So, do you have an alternate point, since your original point seems to be in error.
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Judo Researcher View Post

    When the Meiji-era began in 1868, its use from approximately 100 ryu were outlawed from use in Japan.
    Sources? I've never heard that jujutsu ryuha were outlawed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pgsmith View Post
    Welcome to e-budo!

    I've personally never heard of the term "sport jujutsu" myself, so I looked it up. Looks like some organization (the JJIF?) has created competition rules for their own form of jujutsu. Therefore, it seems to me that your basic premise is in error. There is indeed a term called "sport jujutsu".

    Jujutsu, 柔術, as we know, is simply a descriptive phrase referring to Japanese unarmed arts. There is not now, nor has there ever been, a strict definition of what constitutes jujutsu. For that matter, the Japanese language precludes strict definitions for just about anything.

    Now you could make arguments over the fact that "sport jujutsu" has no basis in traditional Japanese arts, or that "sport jujutsu" is ineffective or useless for the original use of jujutsu. You can argue that it shouldn't exist, but you can't argue that it doesn't exist, since those actually doing it would disagree.

    So, do you have an alternate point, since your original point seems to be in error.
    - Who are those ryuha that were doing "sport jujutsu" during the Samurai period? Do you have any information on that? Don't tell me I have to search the forum since you're telling me something I would have to learn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Judo Researcher View Post
    - Who are those ryuha that were doing "sport jujutsu" during the Samurai period?
    He never said there were any ryuha doing "sport jujutsu" during the Samurai period. Don't put words in other people's mouths.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Judo Researcher View Post
    - Who are those ryuha that were doing "sport jujutsu" during the Samurai period? Do you have any information on that? Don't tell me I have to search the forum since you're telling me something I would have to learn.
    Greetings sir,
    I never once mentioned anything about "the samurai period". Not really sure why you feel that the term 'jujutsu' should necessarily relate to a specific period. It is simply a description. If you wish to discuss koryu jujutsu, then you'll need to name individual ryuha that we can talk about, although my history of specific ryuha is pretty slim. I feel like we're not really understanding what each other has to say. Perhaps you can clarify your original point?
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

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    While the OP has been banned... I wanted to address the usage of the term "sport jiu-jitsu" (note I'm not saying "sport jujutsu").

    There have been some discussions going on within BJJ communities over self-defense BJJ versus competition-focused BJJ. The term "sport jiu-jitsu" seems to have grown in usage to refer to competition focused training. For example, working within the IBJJF rules there are a variety of different "sport" strategies a person can use to score points, gain "advantages" all under the aegis of a "no striking" rule and a time limit to rounds.

    Obviously, if one is training for "self-defense" the conditions of winning a high-stress combative incident can be different. For example, if I can just survive not getting knocked out long enough for the cops to arrive... I've effectively achieved a "win" condition from a self-defense standpoint.

    Thus one can apply the skillset of BJJ to train for two very different situations. Even within the BJJ community there is not consensus on the usage of the term but I think it points to a bit of an identity crisis that their community is facing as it continues to grow and evolve.

    I suspect this is what the OP was referring to.

    Given this is the koryu bujutsu sub-forum for jujutsu I am of the impression that the usage of the term is actually irrelevant to this sub-forum.

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    I find it curious that people get caught up in terminology, and in most instances think that it is a western affectation, especially related to Martial Arts.

    Around the turn of the 20th Century most people called all Japanese grappling Ju Jutsu (Ju Jitsu, Jiu Jitsu, etc.). Kano originally called his style Jiu Jitsu as did most of those who helped bring it to the West.

    I would be the first to admit that there is stuff being called jujutsu today, that I don't consider to be real jujutsu, but what is real jujutsu? Is it only a koryu style (of which there are very few still extant), or something that only teaches self defence? Is there room for a sportive element in an otherwise combative style?

    I definitely think that jujutsu is primarily combative, koryu styles have limited practical use today, but a good practitioner will be able to adapt what he has learnt to today's weapons and environments. Many of the modern jujutsu styles did exactly that, they took what they (or their instructors) knew and adapted it, does that mean that they are no longer 'real' jujutsu?

    I do not accept that 'Sport Jujutsu' is an oxymoron, but I also don't think that a style that is 100% sportive should call itself jujutsu. But that's just me! )

    Regards

    Neil
    Neil Hawkins
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    cannot be taught is understanding"

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    I mistakenly hit a "like" on the Judo Researchers post of 30, July 17:14.

    Would like to remove it but do not see that as an option.
    Chris Thomas

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    I have mistakenly activated a "Like" function on the post of Mr cxt. It was intended to be a "high five", or a , but it ended up with a public display of affection that I'm not comfortable with. As much as I "like" Mr cxt, I'm not sure that I wish for my feelings to be that public. Perhaps the "like" button could be supplemented with a few others in order to get a more accurate assessment of people's feelings. I propose the following;
    Adore
    Admire
    Like
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    Acknowledge
    Tolerate
    Ignore
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    There are, of course, those other forums where creative people enjoy finding just the right gif or jpeg to catch the emotion. One of my all-time favourites is the one of Donald Sutherland pointing and screaming, from "The Invasion of the Bodysnatchers", usually captioned with something about trolls....



    I get sad when I see how quiet the forums are these days.
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    For now, I'm just waiting for the smack of the Bo against a hard wooden floor....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tripitaka of AA View Post
    ...I get sad when I see how quiet the forums are these days.
    If one's words are no better than silence, I prefer silence.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    Sorry, none of the administrator tools allow me to un-like a post. I'll see if any of the other administrators know if there's a way to do it.

    As for being quiet, I agree, but like Brian I'm happy that we don't get the flood of rubbish some of the forums get, but am always willing to discuss stuff, so let's see if we can think of some topics.

    Neil
    Neil Hawkins
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    cannot be taught is understanding"

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    Cool

    OK, I come on about once a week these days. I just saw this thread and in 15 posts the OP got banned. Was it something in another thread or didhe engage in some PM no-no's?
    With respect,
    Mitch Saret

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    He was banned from Budoseek for refusing to comply with their Real Name rule. That may be the case here, but I do not know. He seemed to be familiar with being banned.
    David Noble
    Shorinji Kempo (1983 - 1988)
    I'll think of a proper sig when I get a minute...

    For now, I'm just waiting for the smack of the Bo against a hard wooden floor....

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