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Thread: Officer involved in entangled fight on ground with taser deployment

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    Default Officer involved in entangled fight on ground with taser deployment

    Search goes bad. Officer ends up on ground with subject with officer maintaining a mount position. Manages to deploy taser. Loses half the items on his belt in the process.

    https://www.facebook.com/blueshieldt...9807701046699/
    Al Heinemann
    www.shofukan.ca

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    It is - first a foremost - a good example of how having a realistic level of skill at grappling should be a requirement for all LEO. This officer was able to control the suspect, keep him down, stuff a strong attempt at reversing - which would have put the officer on the bottom, which could have very likely ended with lethal force.

    Instead a strongly resisting suspect was taken into custody without excessive or unnecessary force.

    In the spirit of improving on officer safety, though, and debriefing how things could be better tactically, I think it is also an example of how too much training focus on a) controlled environment, competition oriented grappling develops a default paradigm to tactics that are less safe in the b) uncontrolled, asymmetric, arms bearing environment.

    The cop ended up at b), for sure, but he started in a), probably because that is where the bulk of his training occurs. When stress, and fear, and fatigue set in you end up doing what you do most when you are stressed and fatigued - combat and control tactics are learned in a state-dependent way.

    In these discussions I always contend that it is not that "grappling sucks" or "jujitsu sucks" for police close combat and control. I am a strong proponent of this training and it is the core of my personal martial practice (judo and BJJ).

    Its that many grappling and jujitsu instructors - many of them police officers - often are stylistically driven and view close combat thru the lens of jujitsu (or MMA, or boxing, or whatever), rather than viewing jujitsu through the lens of enhancing close combat and control tactics.
    Last edited by Hissho; 26th February 2016 at 22:18.
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

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    So a review:

    Takedown: at about :36...a sutemi-waza in which the officer hits the ground first, almost pulls the suspect on top of him - on top of his own head at that!

    BJJ seems to like sutemi waza; DT instructors and jujitsu instructors often teach these techniques to police officers. This is not a good idea for couple reasons. Pulling a suspect down on top of your head is one. Officers are usually wearing heavy gear that makes the post takedown turn over to top control much more difficult. Suspects usually are NOT wearing gear and are thus more agile. IF they have greater strength or speed, or skill, this is big advantage. While a sutemi waza might be necessary due to circumstances it is not, in my opinion, advisable as throw in real life circumstances for these and other reasons.

    A rear ankle pick technique - common to sumo, wrestling, and at least one koryu I am aware of - and perfectly acceptable in BJJ - that keeps the officer on his feet is probably the better bet here.

    The following takedown at :41 isn't too bad, gets suspect face down - almost pulls his pants off - and officer comes up on top. This takedown allows the officer to rise from his knees on pavement as well - this is an important thing. Same rear ankle pick also good here.

    Initial Mount:

    Officer does a good job keeping top position and pressure - he put his head into a near guillotine but wasn't going to be effective with his top control. Had to be chewing his knees up on that blacktop but probably the least of his worries. I avoid mount in these situations as I don't like to get so entangled with suspects, and I don't like my knees skinned - in an environment with biohazards, to include on and in the body of the person you are grappling with - keeping my own skin intact is an important safety consideration. Not that it could necessarily have been avoided here, but a quicker guard pass to side control versus mount would have been better and made the suspect's hold more difficult.

    On a side note: control positions with one or both knees on the deck are frequently taught in LE, based on mat martial arts and DT practice. This is not a good idea, and in my experience offers LESS control rather than more control of a subject.

    Stuffing the Reversal:

    Another problem with a wrapped-up mount is that you are more easily rolled...

    Starting at 1:00 the suspect makes a very strong attempt to do so. The officer's control sees that he only goes to his side, and he is then able to manage a sweep that is a variant of what BJJ calls a hip bump. So kudos for good control and avoiding going to bottom: again that could have ultimately led to a use of lethal force, so skill at hold downs is a vital aspect of use of force.

    Note as well that during this, even with his arms around the suspect (limiting the suspects use of his arms, and ability to access the officers or the suspect's weapons (if he was armed), the officer is able to put out a distress call. This is good stuff. While I still don't like the mount under these situations this is a good way to manage it if you are there.

    The Top Control Strikes:

    Here the officer is starting to establish what I would call a better combative approach: he is able to get his head up and back straight and start striking. They are not highly damaging, but watch the suspect's arms. They quickly go to a very defensive posture and a perfect set up for control.


    The Control

    The control method chosen is not the best. A much better position here would have been to take what is called in some circles the "Gift Wrap," and other names:

    http://www.phase3.biz/core/uploads/J...t-giftwrap.jpg

    It can be done different ways, this is one. This would have been a great position to take here.

    Weapons Deployment:

    Officer then draws his Taser: good decision, but he loses control of the suspect's closest arm when he does so. His weapon application is problematic at this point. He adapts by a sort of striking/weapon combo but it is awkward and susceptible to disarm.

    Again his top control is overwhelming the suspect - the suspect is forced to react to the officer - and this is what is the most important factor. The officer is getting exhausted at this point: if you have never felt this kind of adrenal dump you really have no idea the effect it will have on your physical and mental poise during a combative encounter. If, on top of that, you have never legitimately been in a resistive grapple, you are at a double disadvantage.

    The Head and Arm:

    The officer then transitions to a head and arm hold - not my preference in an uncontrolled, open environment encounter as your head is down and you lose any awareness of what is happening around you. This would be a good position to transition immediately to a Gift Wrap as well.


    At any rate - the other officers then arrive and the suspect is taken into custody.

    Hopefully that will give an idea of how I analyze these kinds of things.
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

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    Kit,

    Thanks for putting detail (and time!) into your analysis. Good stuff.

    Do you find that many patrol officers wear knee protection? Or is that pretty much only a SWAT thing?

    Another question comes out of this discussion, regarding the less than ideal application of martial arts to real world situations. I will start a new thread to ask this.

    Great responses. Very illustrative.
    Al Heinemann
    www.shofukan.ca

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    Some do - its not common. I don't even really wear them on SWAT though I have a pair. Some BDU pants come with a thin pad sewn in, which is nice.

    What I do - and what I teach - is to avoid putting your knees on the deck at all if you can help it. This avoids the problem of a) spiking your knee onto a hard surface, during a takedown or control move, which can frankly be career ending; and b) the annoying and bio-hazardous abrading of skin on the knees dragging them around on pavement or blacktop, or onto a needle in a drug house, or what have you.

    I have come to believe that certain osae-waza are practiced in what I believe are largely symbolic ways - to perhaps avoid causing indignity or pain to training partners or seniors in kata, or ways that have been conditioned by practice on mats: and when applied with the knees and structure exerting pressure on the body of the opponent are far more effective, with the benefit of allowing the tori, as it were, to keep the knees off of uncompromising surfaces.
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

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    Gracie Breakdown just released a video on this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlpX1DwEB1k

    They don't make any suggestions for how things could have been handled differently so as far as an analysis I get much more out of Kit's POV. Interesting nonetheless. They share a few perspectives on how to keep a subject's hands off of your toolbelt. They advocate for a new use of the armbar for transitioning into cuffing. Would like to hear other opinions on that.
    Al Heinemann
    www.shofukan.ca

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    Yeah- I have long advocated that the set ups for certain arm bars are conducive to control, and ultimately cuffing. Not so much the arm bars themselves. I actually don't think submissions - generally- are very practical for tactical grappling. Positional control - not reliant on pain compiiance- is far more useful.
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

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    OK - the Breakdown...

    I'll restate that this officer did a good job maintaining pressure and staying in the fight, and retaining initiative. He was able to do so with jiujitsu. Rener (Gracie, the guy doing the talking) is correct in that had he not been able to do so, a lethal force situation may have resulted.

    I'd note that even with a mainly sport jiujitsu approach demonstrated in this clip, it was still effective. My argument is that it will not always be so, and Rener does not address - or is not aware of - the tactical issues surrounding what he is advocating: in particular for a lone officer.

    Time is neutral. It is not on anyone's side, and to make that comments only demonstrates a lack of tactical perspective. This is the view of combatives thru the lens of jiujitsu, and not the other way around.

    First - that was NOT a good or advisable takedown.
    I am not surprised that much better alternatives - again from within the jiujitsu curriculum - are not offered as BJJ-ers are generally not well versed in takedowns.

    There is no apparent understanding of the fact that not all police officers using this material will be young, in shape, not wearing a rash guard and gi pants, barefoot, and with no body armor. Nor that when wearing body armor, boots, more restrictive clothing, and a loaded duty belt you need to be careful about going to the ground first and trying to roll up on top of someone who is NOT wearing the same gear - who may be younger, stronger, and under the influence of attribute enhancing drugs.



    He fails to address the problem in using the mount when not on a mat.
    We see the same - and the same problem in his further demonstration of top control by being totally tied up with and with the head down and alongside the suspect's.

    Again, so many other options are available and in the standard BJJ curriculum that the oversight is puzzling. It is, however, a failure to adapt - or to reverse engineer - jiujitsu to the weapons based environment.


    Last - the armbar. This is a common theme with jiujitsu practitioners, including police officers who have drunk the Kool Aid. It makes almost no sense that you would transition from the mount, thru the very position that is a far better option in this kind of encounter (see the GIft Wrap above), and drop into a juji gatame with your back on the mat (remember you are wearing that belt and body armor...) only to have to get back up again to move into the same position to attempt cuffing.....why are we doing that?

    Never mind that Rener - NOT wearing a uniform, body armor, etc. - is far more limber than many cops AND is doing all this on a nice mat.

    And let's not get into the fact that in real life suspect's bite, they claw testicles, they gouge, etc. Will any of those really dissuade you from taking them into custody? No. But in an age of biohazards being able to avoid any of these things - in the very same Gift Wrap position noted - is a real plus.

    Not sure where he is going with the "cuffing strategy." That setup is weak. He doesn't finish it so that begs more questions.

    I applaud their efforts. I just remain perplexed as to why obvious alternatives from within their own curriculum are not seen more often in these Breakdowns.
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

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