Just wondering of your opinion, a different world

[Cady Goldfield]

We might do well to remember that almost exactly the same things were said of the hoary "samurai traditions" by people in Japan already in the 17th century. They were described as "kaho kenpo" (flowery swordsmanship) and "more flower than fruit." While it may be nowhere near as flamboyant, we can't critically look at koryu embu today and say "oh, yes, that would work in battle!"

And some people DO think the purpose of continuing to do koryu is for embu.

It's the principles that have enduring value, if not the outer expression of form and technique. Unless the applications are refreshed and adapted to be relevant to contemporary combative situations and needs, koryu will just be living "museum pieces," frozen and preserved in time to show how things were, in their day. There's a lot of stuff in koryu that is not particularly pragmatic in real times. I love a good koryu (Kukishin Ryu and Takagi Ryu, for example, still rock, in terms of their potentials), but they have to be adjusted to being practical in contemporary application and not just practiced ritualistically.

But at least koryu work on an actual methodology. The performer in the kata demo presented in this thread, has no background in any established sword system; it's just choreographed martial-ish dance. She admits in an interview that her coach likewise has no sword training, and made up the moves for her routine. No harm, no foul, as it's meant to be performance art that has a martial "feel," but they are not making claims about its efficacy or provinence.

[DustyMars]

Many Moons ago when discussing learning techniques I had been taught in some college courses about the psychology related to sports. I found a most interesting web site (my summary from "A Taxonomy of the Psychomotor Domain" by Anita Harrow) that defines Taxonomy much better than I could, so here it is:

“Cognitive Domain

The cognitive domain is knowledge or mind based. It has three practical instructional levels including fact, understanding, and application. The fact level is a single concept and uses verbs like define, identify, and list. The understanding level puts two or more concepts together. Typical verbs for this level include describe, compare and contrast. The application level puts two or more concepts together to form something new. Typical verbs at this level include explain, apply, and analyze. Delivery in this domain is typically a lecture/presentation and the evaluation will be subjective and objective test items.

Psychomotor Domain

The psychomotor domain is skill based. The student will produce a product. The three practical instructional levels include imitation, practice, and habit. The psychomotor domain is steeped in a demonstration delivery and the first level, imitation, will simply be a return of the demonstration under the watchful eye of the instructor. The practice level will be a proficiency building experience that may be conducted by the student without direct oversight of the instructor. The habit level is reached when the student can perform the skill in twice the time that it takes the instructor or an expert to perform. The delivery is demonstration and proficiency building in nature. The evaluation will be a performance or skill test. The content that is needed to be known to do the skill is cognitive and should be treated accordingly. If you are unable to choose between cognitive and psychomotor, ask yourself the following:

Is speed a factor?

Is equipment other than four walls of a classroom and an overhead projector necessary?

Are you going to grade the activity in some way other than a paper/pencil test?

If you answer "yes" to any one of these three questions, the learning domain should be psychomotor.

If you are still undecided and this is an occupational area, select psychomotor because that is the predominant occupational program domain.

Affective Domain

The affective domain is based upon behavioral aspects and may be labeled as beliefs. The three levels in the domain are awareness, distinction, and integration. The verbs for this domain are generally limited to words like display, exhibit, and accept and these apply at all levels. The first two levels are really cognitive; integration is behavioral and requires the learner to evaluate and synthesize. The content in this domain will usually involve discussions. The testing in the first two levels will be cognitive, whereas the third level will require an affective checklist.”


It fits with thinking too much and brain diarrhea, but after one gets old it keeps us occupied. It all means, if one repeats a techniques enough one learns it. As for those fake Martial Artists, they may just need a real sensei to adjust their Psychomotor Domain.

[Cady Goldfield]

Very interesting, Jeff. Thank you for sharing.
We Westerners tend to approach things cognitively first, then physically... and a lot of us overthink things, at that. But as you note, eventually our bodies start to physically understand what our minds can describe in words. The Old World/Asian approach is to do the physical first, mimicking and doing everything without attempting to think about itl it takes faith in one's intuitive ability to integrate the material an eventually understand it intellectually/cognitively. At some point our opposite-end starting points move toward the middle and we end up in the same place.

[DustyMars]

While opining to my wife about trying to learn Hane Goshi, back in the day, I told her of that philosophy. At first I thought my technique was correct until our new sensei would always flip me over in a twirl each time I would attempt it. A friend told me that I was approaching it wrong since I would pull uke, then snap my foot up against his inner ankle, then try to throw him. With my foot up against his inner leg/ankle off I would go flying off with some sort of ashi waza. Sensei, a three-time Okinawa champ and built like a human brick with arms and legs would only snort a microsecond before I would go flying. Then when I accidently traversed forward and to his right rear I attempted hane goshi, but this time he waited until I reversed that movement, came out and then sent me flying. He snorted, then demonstrated how to accomplish that throw and set me straight.

I dreamed about that for months then tried it again with another uke and it slowly began to work. Not sure how many repetitions I practiced it but eventually it was like no thought action. It only took me 20 years after that to migrate to uchimata. About that time it became second nature to learn a new feature to old throws that little conscious thought actually took place.