Niten Ichi Ryu/Soushuitsu Ryu (Or What Exactly Defines a Sogo Bujutsu?)

[Pluto Slash]

Originally, my post would have been titled “Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu and Soushuitsu Ryu (Or How I Got Confused Over What Exactly Does and Does Not Count as A Sogo Bujutsu)”

So, what is a Sogo Bujutsu? From my current understanding, a Sogo Bujutsu is a comprehensive school of combat arts that teaches around 10 disciplines, give or take 2 or 3. These disciplines range from common medieval and pre-medieval combat skills such as the use of swords and spears (and towards the end of the Sengoku Period and onwards, the use of guns), to other skills and techniques that arenÂ’t as easy to sum up and list according to a numerical value, such as Ninjutsu and general battlefield strategy.

For the longest time, I've wondered if Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu might count as a “Sogo Bujutsu.” Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu, with it's range of disciplines, Kenjutsu, Kodachijutsu, Ryotojutsu, Aikuchi roppo (whatever that is), Juttejutsu and Bojutsu seems comparatively lesser in scope then some of the Sogo Bujutsu I’ve heard of, but perhaps it’s Bojutsu curriculum could also be used with a spear, in which case, the school would also have Yarijutsu covered. It could be that Musashi’s writings on strategy could also count as the school’s “Heiho” curriculum. Maybe if the curriculum of Enmei Ryu and Tori Ryu were compiled into the Niten Ichi Ryu’s teachings, perhaps that would seal the deal.

Then we have Soushuitsu Ryu.

Soushuitsu Ryu has (according to Wikipedia and YouTube videos I’ve seen) only 2 disciplines: Koshi-no-Mawari (which in the context of Soushuitsu Ryu refers to its sword fighting techniques) and Jujutsu. Wikipedia states there are 48 techniques for the school’s Jujutsu curriculum, but doesn’t provide a number for the amount of techniques in its Koshi-no-Mawari curriculum (which is listed as having, to my understanding, both Kenjutsu and Battojutsu techniques).

I don’t suppose any of the videos I’ve seen on YouTube of the Shoshuitsu Ryu techniques showed the complete (surface level) curriculum of the school, but I have seen videos of the school that show over 40 Jujutsu kata before the video’s end, both in and out of a Yoroi Kumiuchi context, and I have seen videos of the school that show a decent number of Battojutsu kata, with and without a partner. I have not, however, seen any videos of the Kenjutsu kata from the school where the swords are already out and where the techniques and concepts demonstrated from the kata are being performed from whichever kamae the school makes use of.

If, by some chance, the longer videos of the Soushuitsu Ryu I’ve seen actually do demonstrate all or most of the Soushuitsu Ryu curriculum (or however many of the kata were deemed safe enough to publicly demonstrate), I’m not entirely sure why the Soushuitsu Ryu (at least according to Wikipedia) is counted as a “Sogo Bujutsu.” Could it be that Soushuitsu Ryu was originally a larger martial art when it was known as Futagami Ryu, and taught more disciplines? Maybe it’s just comprehensive for the 2 arts it’s associated with? “Here’s how to wrestle an armored opponent to the ground and stab them. And here’s how to kill someone with a sword draw during battlefield situations we still aren’t entirely sure are a thing of the past yet. That Shimabara Rebellion caught us off guard a little.”

Basically, my questions are:
1. Does Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu count as a Sogo Bujutsu?
2. How does Soushuitsu Ryu count as a Sogo Bujutsu?

Thanks!

Colter

[poryu]

I htink if you post on one of the FB Koryu groups you will get more response. No one comes here anymore.
Everyone is on the FB groups now. You will find member so both schools there who will talk to you

[stevenoid18]

That was informational.

[Cady Goldfield]

It's true that this website is a backwater now, and most activity is on social media. Check on FB, Reddit, Quora and other online conversation pits. They all have martial arts and even koryu subforums.

That said, E-Budo still retains a very valuable archive containing two decades of input by top budoka. I recommend perusing these old forums, doing searches for key words of topics you're interested in, and see what useful material and commentary come up. The main reason why we keep E-Budo afloat is because it is such a rich repository of information.

[hyaku]

Well personally and as a retired Koho Bucho of HNIR in Japan we have never referred to it as such.

Does it matter? It's even questionable the some of the things you mention were even handed down by the founder. We simply use the word "Hyoho". Sogo means well rounded and complete to teach a number of weapon arts. But where I would have problem with that is all the sword elements and fundamental are the same regardless of length.

You are even mixing up the actual names of waza with weapons!

[hyaku]

I look at Reddit links from the bot on Discord where we have koryu groups and do have FB private pages related to HNIR as do my dojo. But I would never go near Quora. Seems to be loaded with self opinionated idiots that seems to turn statements into a question format. Very strange.

Sad that people don't come here so much any more.

[Cady Goldfield]

Quora is a mixed bag, and I've seen some interesting, authentic discussion there as well as misinformation. But, yes, you have to take what's posted there with a grain of salt, especially if one is a beginner, or not experienced in doing research. One of the drawbacks of unmonitored sites, is that there is no quality control when it comes to backing up the accuracy of the information posted.

[hyaku]

Originally, my post would have been titled “Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu and Soushuitsu Ryu (Or How I Got Confused Over What Exactly Does and Does Not Count as A Sogo Bujutsu)”

So, what is a Sogo Bujutsu? From my current understanding, a Sogo Bujutsu is a comprehensive school of combat arts that teaches around 10 disciplines, give or take 2 or 3. These disciplines range from common medieval and pre-medieval combat skills such as the use of swords and spears (and towards the end of the Sengoku Period and onwards, the use of guns), to other skills and techniques that arenÂ’t as easy to sum up and list according to a numerical value, such as Ninjutsu and general battlefield strategy.

For the longest time, I've wondered if Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu might count as a “Sogo Bujutsu.” Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu, with it's range of disciplines, Kenjutsu, Kodachijutsu, Ryotojutsu, Aikuchi roppo (whatever that is), Juttejutsu and Bojutsu seems comparatively lesser in scope then some of the Sogo Bujutsu I’ve heard of, but perhaps it’s Bojutsu curriculum could also be used with a spear, in which case, the school would also have Yarijutsu covered. It could be that Musashi’s writings on strategy could also count as the school’s “Heiho” curriculum. Maybe if the curriculum of Enmei Ryu and Tori Ryu were compiled into the Niten Ichi Ryu’s teachings, perhaps that would seal the deal.

Then we have Soushuitsu Ryu.

Soushuitsu Ryu has (according to Wikipedia and YouTube videos I’ve seen) only 2 disciplines: Koshi-no-Mawari (which in the context of Soushuitsu Ryu refers to its sword fighting techniques) and Jujutsu. Wikipedia states there are 48 techniques for the school’s Jujutsu curriculum, but doesn’t provide a number for the amount of techniques in its Koshi-no-Mawari curriculum (which is listed as having, to my understanding, both Kenjutsu and Battojutsu techniques).

I don’t suppose any of the videos I’ve seen on YouTube of the Shoshuitsu Ryu techniques showed the complete (surface level) curriculum of the school, but I have seen videos of the school that show over 40 Jujutsu kata before the video’s end, both in and out of a Yoroi Kumiuchi context, and I have seen videos of the school that show a decent number of Battojutsu kata, with and without a partner. I have not, however, seen any videos of the Kenjutsu kata from the school where the swords are already out and where the techniques and concepts demonstrated from the kata are being performed from whichever kamae the school makes use of.

If, by some chance, the longer videos of the Soushuitsu Ryu I’ve seen actually do demonstrate all or most of the Soushuitsu Ryu curriculum (or however many of the kata were deemed safe enough to publicly demonstrate), I’m not entirely sure why the Soushuitsu Ryu (at least according to Wikipedia) is counted as a “Sogo Bujutsu.” Could it be that Soushuitsu Ryu was originally a larger martial art when it was known as Futagami Ryu, and taught more disciplines? Maybe it’s just comprehensive for the 2 arts it’s associated with? “Here’s how to wrestle an armored opponent to the ground and stab them. And here’s how to kill someone with a sword draw during battlefield situations we still aren’t entirely sure are a thing of the past yet. That Shimabara Rebellion caught us off guard a little.”

Basically, my questions are:
1. Does Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu count as a Sogo Bujutsu?
2. How does Soushuitsu Ryu count as a Sogo Bujutsu?

Thanks!

Colter

Number 1 answer NO