Yoshida Kotaro & Yoshida Kenji (Yanagi-ryu)

[Martin H]

Hello everyone,

Im searching for informaton about Kotaro Yoshida Sensei, Who taught JJ to the founder of my style (kyokushinkai karate), Masutatsu Oyama.

He was a shihan of Shiragi Saburo Takeda Ryu Jujutsu (a
substyle of Daito ryu), and a student of Morihei Ueshiba of Aikido (actualy he was a "Ani dechi", but Im not familiar with the term).
I have also heard that he also was a master of Yanagi-Ryu Aikijujutsu, but that is unconfirmed.

He founded a JJ. style known as Daito Ryu Aiki Bujutsu, in which he awarded Mas. Oyama a Menkyo Kaiden.
I think he died 1962 or 1963

Does anyone know more about him and his life?
Does his Ryu still exist, and is there any information available about it?

Any help is appreciated.

Martin H
Sweden

[Walker]

The thumbnail history as I understand it is:
Kotaro Yoshida (1883 - 1966) was a journalist and member of the Black Dragon Society. He was acquainted with Sokaku Takeda and studied Daito Ryu with him (awarded Kyoju Dairi). He introduced Ueshiba to Sokaku in 1915. He was also adept at his family art of Yanagi Ryu and incorporated principles from Daito Ryu into it and taught both in Tokyo after the war. His son was Kenji Yoshida who became estranged from his father and moved to the USA before the war and later taught Yanagi Ryu to Angier Sensei. There are also connections with the Shindo Yoshin Ryu.
References would be Aikido Journal v.26 #2 and v.27 #1 and Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu by Stanley Pranin.
Hope this helps.

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by Walker
His son was Kenji Yoshida who became estranged from his father and moved to the USA before the war and later taught Yanagi Ryu to Angier Sensei. There are also connections with the Shindo Yoshin Ryu.
References would be Aikido Journal v.26 #2 and v.27 #1 and Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu by Stanley Pranin.
Hope this helps.
[/B]

Also, it's said that Yoshida Kenji, on his death-bed, passed his art to Don Angier, which is considered by many as the new soke of the art. The story may be true or not but Angier Sensei's ability is recognized by many serious people throughout the world, as Stan Pranin, Katsuyuki Kondo and Okamoto Seigo, if I'm not mistaken.
An excellent article about Don Angier Sensei and Yanagi Ryu Aiki Bugei is in the last number of Aikido Journal(#119, I think).
Best regards
Ubaldo.

Hi Guys,

It's interesting how myth and reality sort of combine together sometimes to create a larger more inaccutate myth.

Posted by a Mr Martin H?

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"Im searching for informaton about Kotaro Yoshida Sensei, Who taught JJ to the founder of my style (kyokushinkai karate), Masutatsu Oyama."
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This is accurate. Yoshida Kotaro did teach jujutsu ( Daito ryu ) To Mas Oyama. This is confirmed in the teaching ledgers of Yoshida Kotaro where Mas Oyama's name is recorded.



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"He was a shihan of Shiragi Saburo Takeda Ryu Jujutsu (a
substyle of Daito ryu), and a student of Morihei Ueshiba of Aikido (actualy he was a "Ani dechi", but Im not familiar with the term)."
____________________________________________________________

I am unfamiliar with any substyle of Daito ryu by the name referenced above. In conversation with aiki historian, Stan Pranin just now, he flatly stated that this information is incorrect. Yoshida Kotaro received a mainline Daito ryu Kyoju Dairi from Sokaku Takeda, not some substyle. Yoshida Kotaro also was definitely not a student of Ueshiba Morihei. In fact Yoshida Kotaro was senior to Ueshiba in Daito ryu and introduced Ueshiba to Takeda thereby sponsoring his entrance into the Daito ryu.



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"I have also heard that he also was a master of Yanagi-Ryu Aikijujutsu, but that is unconfirmed."
____________________________________________________________

This is not unconfirmed. Yoshida Kotaro was the headmaster of Yanagi ryu and taught certain portions of Yanagi ryu to Kondo Katsuyuki, the only recognized holder of Daito ryu Menkyo Kaiden. Kondo Sensei once personally inspected the Yanagi ryu teaching license held by Yoshida Kotaro. This information I received directly from Kondo Sensei during a visit to his home in 1996.



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"He founded a JJ. style known as Daito Ryu Aiki Bujutsu, in which he awarded Mas. Oyama a Menkyo Kaiden."


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This information is obviously incorrect. Yoshida Kotaro was not a ryuso of any style. He certainly did not found Daito ryu Aiki Bujutsu. Yoshida Kotaro could never have issued a Menkyo Kaiden in Daito ryu to Mas Oyama because he did not have the authority or position to do so. Only Sokaku Takeda would have been able to award anyone that rank and Mas Oyama never studied under Takeda.

These facts are so well documented that there is virtually no wiggle room for speculation or debate here.


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Does anyone know more about him and his life?

____________________________________________________________

Stan Pranin is probably the best authority on Yoshida Kotaro easily accessible. I believe information on him is available on the Aikido Journal website.


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Does his Ryu still exist, and is there any information available about it?
____________________________________________________________

By his ryu, I am assuming that you are referencing The Yoshida family art of Yanagi ryu Aiki Bugei. Information on this ryu and it's current headmaster, Don Angier is available in Aikido Journal #119 which is on the bookshelves right now.

Also relevent must be Daito ryu Aikijujutsu. The art has been essentially headed by the aforementioned Kondo Katsuyuki since Takeda Tokimune's death. Information on the Daito ryu and it's various ryuha is also available in Aikido Journal, it's website and several books.

Of interesting note to you should be the fact that several high ranking Kyokushinkai instructors have trained extensively in the Daito ryu Roppokai under Okamoto Seigo.



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Posted by Ubaldo:

"Also, it's said that Yoshida Kenji, on his death-bed, passed his art to Don Angier, which is considered by many as
the new soke of the art."
____________________________________________________________

This is not really accurate. I'm actually smiling a little here. The art was not passed to Don Angier by Yoshida Kenji during some death bed vigil (What a great movie scene!). Thats way too melodramatic. The art was effectively passed to Don Angier when Yoshida Kenji ( the son of Kotaro and appointed successor) realized that he would never return to Japan. At that point he realized that for the art to survive he had to adopt Don Angier as a yoshi. He did this long before he was confined to bed. At this time he presented Don with the family mons and gave him the Japanese name Yoshida Kensaburo. Don Angier was overseas on military duty when Yoshida Kenji passed away from silicosis.

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Posted by Doug Walker:

"His son was Kenji Yoshida who became estranged from his father and moved to the USA before the war and later taught Yanagi Ryu to Angier Sensei. There are also connections with the Shindo Yoshin Ryu."
____________________________________________________________

This is accurate but I must mention that the connections between Yoshida Kotaro and Shindo Yoshin ryu were by way of Ohbata Shigeta and therefore only include the Takamura ryuha of Shindo Yoshin ryu. Even then, the technical connection from Daito ryu to the Takamura ha shindo Yoshin ryu is quite minimal


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I hope this helps,





[Edited by Toby Threadgill on 07-27-2000 at 06:53 PM]

[MarkF]

Welcome to E-budo, Martin H!
Please note forum rules and please sign all your posts with your full name. It is easiest by utilizing the signature box in your profile

[Yamantaka]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Toby Threadgill
[B]
Posted by Ubaldo:
"Also, it's said that Yoshida Kenji, on his death-bed, passed his art to Don Angier, which is considered by many as
the new soke of the art."
____________________________________________________________

This is not really accurate. I'm actually smiling a little here. The art was not passed to Don Angier by Yoshida Kenji during some death bed vigil (What a great movie scene!). Thats way too melodramatic. The art was effectively passed to Don Angier when Yoshida Kenji ( the son of Kotaro and appointed successor) realized that he would never return to Japan. At that point he realized that for the art to survive he had to adopt Don Angier as a yoshi. He did this long before he was confined to bed. At this time he presented Don with the family mons and gave him the Japanese name Yoshida Kensaburo. Don Angier was overseas on military duty when Yoshida Kenji passed away from silicosis."

OUCH! Absolutely right, Toby! Hell, I can only presume that my melodramatic side just took control...
Point taken
Yamantaka

[Martin H]

Hello everyone and thanks for all the replies.

To Toby Threadgill:

The information I gave comes mainly from a interview with Master Oyama shortly before his death, and I fully accept that it might be (and is) a bit incorrect due to faulty translations, distortion of memories due to time and missconceptions, it is however what has been given to me and what I had to work with.
I should have added a "can anyone confirm this information?" to the original message :-)

Masutatsu Oyama was indeed given a Menkyo kaiden by Kotaro Yoshida Sensei, and although I have been informed that it was for "Daitoryu aiki bujutsu", it might have been for some other style (in which case I would be very interrested in knowing which style), as I have only seen pictures of it and dont read Japanese I cannot say for sure (Oyama was quite proud of it as it was the only proof he had that he had studied under the master). I belive that during his lifetime it resided on the walls in the Kyokushinkaikan Hombu, and probably still does.

As for the Yoshida practicing Yanagi ryu being unconfirmed, I meant that I had no real source to go on but hearsay only. Thankyou for confirming it.

BTW. I didnt intend to imply that Yoshida Sensei founded, or awarded a menkyo kaiden in "THE" Daito ryu aiki bujutsu, but rather a personal substyle of lesser fame.
If no such substyle existed, im obviously in the wrong.

Im also very interrested in your statement that high ranking Kyokushinkai masters have studied Daito ryu, could you give any names?

Best wishes
Martin Hultgren

[Walker]

Hey Toby,
Didn’t mean to imply that there was a big connection between Takamura ha SYR, Daito, and Yanagi just remarking on the interesting interconnections clustered around Sokaku Takeda - small world after all type thing....
Also Kotaro’s dates are listed as 1964 and 1966 (both from S.Pranin) anyone know which is correct?
Any word on the next Dallas event?

Ubaldo,

LOLOL. No ouch intended! I was smiling with you not at you. I read and appreciate your many posts here on E budo
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And Martin,

It is easty to understand why all the confusion exists. Sometimes I go crazy trying to keep it all stright myself.

Thanks for the inquiry. Thats what E budo is all about.

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And Doug,

I knew what you meant but I just wanted to be safe. Otherwise somebody somewhere will start claiming Shindo Yoshin ryu came from Daito ryu, and then claim through SYR to be the high mucky muck of another hitherto unknown ancient "aiki willow killer fu!"

lolol. You know what I mean

Concerning Kotaro's death there is confusion. I received an original photograph of Kotaro from Kondo with it dated 1966. In the picture Kotaro sure looks alive and kicking to me. Now the date written on the photo could be wrong of course but Kondo says 1966 and he was training with him. Stan thought it as 1964 but is now I believe amending that date to the 1966 supplied by Kondo.

The next open seminar here in Dallas will be around Halloween. Don is here this weekend BTW (I pick him up in a few hours). But this is a seminar open only to the SMU Martial Arts Club Saturday and it's instructors Sunday.

P.S. I keep waiting for David Maynard to respond with some more info on the changes to the Shindo Yoshin ryu curriculum. I want to make sure the info is absolutely correct before I post any of it publicly. Karl Garrison gave me some info that he remembered but he also suggested David Maynard for the most accurate and authorative explanation.

Toby

[Edited by Toby Threadgill on 07-28-2000 at 11:54 AM]

[Brently Keen]

I'm going to try this again, and keep trying every once in a while, so please pardon me if I seem repetetive. I've posted similar questions here before and on other board's.


Can anybody tell me who Kotaro Yoshida's father was? Like what was his name, where was he born and where did he die? What about Kotaro's grandfather?

I'm trying to find out if Kotaro Yoshida was of any relation to Okunojo Yoshida. Okunojo Yoshida was a senior student of kenjutsu master Toru Shirai, and he wrote numerous books on Tenshinden Itto-ryu and Tenshin Shirai-ryu heiho. He also was a student of a famous Kito-ryu jujutsu master. Okunojo Yoshida's writings were cited numerous times by Yoshinori Kono in his series of articles in Aikido Journal (Famous Swordsmen and Budoka of Japan).

Can anyone help me out here? Email me privately if you wish, thanks.

Brently Keen

[Richard Elias]

Brently,

Very little is known about Yoshida Kotaro. We don't know much of anything about his family before him. Kondo might know more, but thus far he's not sharing. It is known that his family came originally from Satsuma,(Kotaro later moved to Hokkaido) and someone from his family was involved in the rebellion (the losing side.) He is also believed to be related to the Yoshida that were a part of the 47 ronin,(a father and son I believe"?") they share the same mon. Kotaro did study Kito Ryu and Ono ha Itto Ryu, among others, both very popular styles of the day. How much of this ended up in Yanagi ryu and his relationship to Okunujo are unknown at this time, well at least by us anyway. If you do get any more information please share, it would be greatly appreciated.

[Brently Keen]

Richard,

If I can find out anything, Don and the rest of you Yanagi-ryu guys will certainly be the first to know. I am going to ask Stanley Pranin if he can't perhaps ask Kondo sensei more about Kotaro Yoshida.

Regards,

Brently Keen

[Kendoguy9]

hello all,

i have also had a few questions about this topic. what i found that was interesting is that Richard Kim, the karate sensei trained with Kotaro sensei. from what Kim has published he only learned some bojutsu and tessenjutsu from Kotaro sensei. it is possible that Oyama could have learned a limited portion of the ryu, and had some sort of certificate in that section. he has a picture in one of his small books of Kotaro sensei, and him standing behind him holding a tessen. what makes it interesting is that it looks like a formal portrait, not just a random photograph from a seminar or the like. Kim also states that Kotaro sensei killed a bear with his tessen! what would be interesting is to see how Kim's karate organization, and possibly Oyama's too, practices bojutsu. perhaps then someone like Angeir sensei, or Toby sensei could compare and contrast? anyone have contacts in either org?

gambatte!!!

Chris,

Information concerning Richard Kim's relationship to Yoshida Kotaro is so full of inaccuracies that no one knows exactly where to start. They definitely met and knew one another as his names appears in Kotaro's teaching ledgers with that of Mas Oyama. Richard Kim makes it seem as though they were very very close and that he trained extensively with Kotaro. However, sources close to Mas Oyama have said that it was actually Mas who was seriously trained by Kotaro and that Kim was just Mas's uke.

Kim also has publicly claimed to have been with Kotato when he died. The fact that Katsuyuki Kondo disputes this and that Riscard Kim has Kotaro's time of death wrong by many years sort of botch his credibility on this.

Now a really glaring problem for Richard Kim is that in the 1960's an article was featured in Black Belt Magazine where Kim claimed to be the inheritor of Daito Ryu. There is even a picture of Richard Kim with an evidently bogus densho. This really clobbers his credibility for good.

One thing for sure is that what Kim teaches is nothing like Daito ryu or Yanagi ryu. Since Yoshida Kotaro did nothing that remotely resembled karate what the heck did Kim learn of Daito ryu or Yanagi ryu and why is it not evident in his teaching? My own slant is that Daito ryu and Yanagi ryu were so difficult that he and Mas did not train long enough with Kotaro to genuinely learn much from him. This would explain why there is no evidence of Daito ryu or Yanagi ryu in their teachings.

There is also an obscure rumour that Richard Kim was in Japan during WW2 as a guest of the Japanese Govt. He evidently mentions this in some writings concerning his being at the Dai Nippon Butokukai in 1943 or something.

Oop's! Big Oop's

Sheesh, If thats true it's a miracle he was not sent to the slammer for treason because he was an American citizen.

If anyone knows more I would be interested in listening?

BTW, I once asked Don Angier about the rumour that Kotaro killed a bear with an iron fan. He sort of giggled and said "Yeah, It was probably a cub tied to a tree or something"

Irreverant to the end!



[Edited by Toby Threadgill on 08-08-2000 at 03:24 PM]

[Joseph Svinth]

Japanese Americans (okay, Kim is Korean American, but back then hardly anyone in the US distinguished so closely) who were in Japan during WWII generally got their citizenship back following the Korean War. Examples of noted US budoka included in this generalization are Jim Yoshida (judo) and Rod Omoto (kendo). Those who did not generally *chose* to remain in Japan; examples here include sumotori Harley Kiichiro Ozaki (Toyonishiki). (Rikidozan was a stablemate, by the way.)

Active service in the Japanese military was considered by the government (we'll disregard the Tokyo Rose conviction here, as that was a kangaroo trial), but in general if the individual was drafted then the government assumed that the duty was not voluntary. Voluntary service was potentially an issue, but in general, even Japanese Americans who volunteered for service in the Imperial Navy's signals intercept operations were not persecuted. (The signals intercept officer on IJNS Yamato in 1945 was from Idaho, but of course he died. Meanwhile, the only surviving signals intercept officer that I know by name, Spokane's Welly Shibata, chose to stay in Japan after the war because by then he was married, had a couple kids, and a good job with an Osaka newspaper. Nevertheless, he was free to come to Seattle to visit friends and relatives during the Korean War, which was before such travel became commonplace.)

All of which is a long way of saying that it would not have been much of a problem for a Kibei or Nisei to regain US citizenship during the 1950s.