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Thread: Yoshida Kotaro & Yoshida Kenji (Yanagi-ryu)

  1. #46
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    Dear Nathan, James et al:

    Just a brief apology on behalf of some of the people who contributed to the discussion on BUDO-SEEK. Its not all that often that Hapkido people have a chance to compare notes with major players in our cousin arts in Japan. For me, personally, I thought that more could have been made of the opportunity and felt a bit stymied by Johns' take on things. He apparently has some strong feelings about his position but it seemed that those strong feelings repeatedly hampered expanding the discussion and promoting a comfortable dialogue. Sorta reminded me of the exchanges with the Italian DRAJJ contingent after Sensei Kondo took charge a couple of years back. At any rate I thought I would mention that perhaps more could have been made of the dialogue and that I for one look forward to the next opportunity. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

  2. #47
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Hi Bruce
    I think that part of the problem is that you mention Denora in the same sentence as DRAJJ.
    He has nothing and never did have anything, to do with the art. Therefore having ANY "discussion" is moot. He has virtually nothing to say.
    It is the equivalent of using him for source material on Yanagi or Yoshin ryu. He always was and remains- a steadfast source of disinformation to this day.
    Dates wrong
    Teachers wrong
    Affiliations wrong
    And conspiracy theories abound as well allegations of misconduct to all parties that disagree with him.

    As I was one of the first (along with Dave Maynard)- to openly challenge this Denora, Lewis, and Lovret connection back in Aikido Journal printed version days before most people here knew about them- I say do not give them a voice.

    Mr. Denora has no voice in any debate or discussion regarding DRAJJ or Yanagi ryu.

    That can be said in a few well worded sentences, and then let his strange created histories and stories fail on their own.
    I openly challenged Lewis's claims in front of some two hundred people with Stan Pranin sitting next to me and Kondo across the room and that guy's stories were taken apart.
    In short he is nobody in relation to these arts. Thankfully, he has not impacted them in any way and with the onset of the internet both he and Fred Lovret's bought DRAJJ Mokuroku and strange alleged associations to TSKSR are now known and their fraud is a miserable failure.
    We would do well to challenge the claims where they appear and then let it be.
    While I appreciate the good humor that everyone has with Denoras writings-it is similar to poking fun and enjoying the ravings of a mentally challenged person.


    cheers
    Dan
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 11th March 2004 at 16:09.

  3. #48
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    Ditto.
    Richard Elias
    Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin ryu
    Yanagi Ryu

  4. #49
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    Ditto.
    Richard Elias
    Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin ryu
    Yanagi Ryu

  5. #50
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    Dear Dan:

    I know your post was well-intentioned, but I have to tell ya, I don't think I am EVER going to be able to follow the various Yanagi-ryu and DRAJJ ins-and-outs. I flatter myself that I am pretty much as intelligent as the next guy (more or less) but sometimes I just get completely mind-boggled trying to follow some of these discussions.

    If I followed what you were saying, I can then conclude that Denora and "Lewis" (don't know him) and Loveret while not related by tradition are essentially cut from the same cloth. I remember Loveret from the magazine he published quite a while back and the two books he wrote. If I remember he represented himself as "Yanagi-ryu" after the fashion of Sensei Angier except that Sensei Angier is a legitimate inheritor while Loveret has never demonstrated such a transmission. I recall a John Clodig, a lawyer from California, who was also teaching what I remember as Yanagi-ryu but remember little about him. Wasn't there also some guy in Mass or Conn who published Yanagi-ryu tapes? I know that there was a guy here in the Chicago area (Cicero?) who was teaching an aiki art and did have some connection formerly with Loveret but I am not sure if he is still affiliated. And I haven't even gotten to DRAJJ differences what with Brently Keene in California, Howard Popkin in Long Island and Gawd knows how many disparate entities in between. I think you guys need to put out score cards so out-siders can keep track of the players! Too bad there isn't some central agency that can give the relative standings of these folks so we know whos' who, yes?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

  6. #51
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    Question

    Bruce,
    I gotta wonder why you're so fascinated by the subject. Are you studying Daito-ryu or Yanagi-ryu now, or considering it?
    Cady Goldfield

  7. #52
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    Dear Cady:

    There are a FEW points and I will try to keep this concise.

    1.) There is some argument that can be made for relating Hapkido traditions to Aiki-jutsu traditions. What that relationship is and was or will be I don't know, but these families are related in some way. I just choose to believe that what happens in one part of the family isn't necessarily divorced from another part.

    2.) People deal with different conflicts in different ways. We in the Hapkido community have our own messes. But if we can learn by watching how others deal with similar conflicts, or share some of our experiences maybe it can be of a help.

    3.) Sometimes in some of this stuff there is the odd comment about relating something going on within the dialogue to events or activities outside of the dialogue. For instance, both Hwang Kee and Ueyshiba are reported to have studied something in Manchuria. If a discussion in one area turns up the light somewhere else I would like to be there. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

  8. #53
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Bruce writes
    Dear Dan:
    I know your post was well-intentioned, but I have to tell ya, I don't think I am EVER going to be able to follow the various Yanagi-ryu and DRAJJ ins-and-outs. I flatter myself that I am pretty much as intelligent as the next guy (more or less) but sometimes I just get completely mind-boggled trying to follow some of these discussions.

    Dan Writes
    It really is all so simple bud
    DR, Yanagi, Yoshin are like Koryu.
    V-E-R-Y small groups who all know each other. If you have trained or are training in it- You are known.
    The only thing that has made it complicated are the FAB THREE from Daito ryu; Denora, Lovret and Lewis. If you remove their bizarre antics- it is traceable and simple.

    Bruce writes
    If I followed what you were saying, I can then conclude that Denora and "Lewis" (don't know him) and Loveret while not related by tradition are essentially cut from the same cloth. I remember Loveret from the magazine he published quite a while back and the two books he wrote. If I remember he represented himself as "Yanagi-ryu" after the fashion of Sensei Angier except that Sensei Angier is a legitimate inheritor while Loveret has never demonstrated such a transmission.

    Dan writes
    Yes cut from the same cloth and no - The fab three you named were all using the DAITO RYU name in the late eighties and early nineties-not Yanagi.
    And over time we let the word get out.
    From no-dan to 7 th dan to 6th dan to no-dan to 10th Dan- There are so many truly bizzare and comical stories about these guys that it would take pages upon pages to go through it all. Thatís why I commented that we should be discluding them altogether. Having talked with and or read some of their material and even having been threatened with arrest or death threats - I feel they have mental problems. If I revealed some of their writings it would certainly be considered comical or simply sad.

    Snip Clodig stuff................

    Bruce writes
    Wasn't there also some guy in Mass or Conn who published Yanagi-ryu tapes?

    Dan writes
    Yes- Tony Annesie But it is best to let the Yanagi guys answer that if they choose. That gets complicated.


    snip unrleated stuff...........

    Bruce writes
    I think you guys need to put out score cards so out-siders can keep track of the players! Too bad there isn't some central agency that can give the relative standings of these folks so we know whos' who, yes?

    Dan writes
    No bud. It just isnít complicated when you remove the nonsense from unrelated parties.

    First up-Denora is just so much background noise. Dismiss him altogether. He is virtually meaningless to the art or arts in general.

    Second up- even if you include the Seisinkai debate (that is at least clear to read) as it is really a debate between people of serious training history.

    So, remove thatÖ.and itís simple.
    There is only:
    The Kodokai
    Under Kiyama Hayawo Shihan
    Which- as a school- has been teaching here the longest
    VERY conservative, tight knit group.

    Roppokai
    Under Okamoto

    Mainline
    Under Kondo

    And Takumakai
    study groups


    Yanagi ryu
    Don Angier and his students
    They all know each other

    Yoshin ryu
    Takamura (deceased) and his students
    They all know each other

    It is fairly easy

    So, remove the rhetoric and there is no debate.
    Everyone just trains. Please realize you are talking about something like 50-70 people and thats about it.

    Just donít buy into the nonsense
    Cheers
    Dan
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 12th March 2004 at 02:09.

  9. #54
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    Dear Dan:

    Hey! I like that!

    Neat, simple and to the point! Now I am assuming that there are probably still grumblings in and among members of each select group or maybe finger-pointing between, say, this version of DRAJJ and that. But I should think, as you say, the groups would all be small and know each other. Thanks again.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

  10. #55
    David Maynard Guest

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    Hello

    Mr Harden posted this:

    "As I was one of the first (along with Dave Maynard)- to openly challenge this Denora, Lewis, and Lovret connection back in Aikido Journal printed version days before most people here knew about them- I say do not give them a voice."

    Interesting,

    Dan, have we met? Before my move across the pond I lived in Danbury, Connecticut. Perhaps we crossed paths back in my dojo rat days. And I must agree with your assessment of the "3 Amigo's" I never met Graham Lewis in person although we did have an entertaining phone conversation that ended rather abruptly when the definition of fraud was brought up as a topic. However, I have met Denora and Lovret in person, and what an amazing show they put on back in the 80's. Takamura Sensei almost burst his britches once laughing at Lovret during a demonstration in San Diego. It was a spectacle beyond imagination! replete with his fake Japanese accent in front of a mostly Japanese crowd. My deary me...

    I read Denora's posts concerning Hapkido & Daito ryu over on Budoseek in jiiked stupification. That man must be on some good hallucinogens. I was about to post a terse response when my TSYR cohort Toby Threadgill chimed in and cut Denora's legs from underneath his ponderous pie trap. Simply amazing that man. Does anyone know what medication he's taking?

    So Mr Sims, I'm with Mr Harden. Ignore the rantings of these, the Daito ryu lunatic fringe. They are white noise in their own sea of silliness.

    I'm new to these internet budo discussion boards and I must say Toby was pretty accurate in his assessment to me. So far it reminds me of cross between PBS , The Twilight Zone and the Beverly Hillbillies. Crikey fun for sure, but in an almost embarrassing manner.

  11. #56
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Hi Dave

    No we haven't had the pleasure of each others company. The full quote of what I wrote in the above is the following......

    As I was one of the first (along with Dave Maynard)- to openly challenge this Denora, Lewis, and Lovret connection back in Aikido Journal printed version days before most people here knew about them- I say do not give them a voice.

    The single letter that appeared in Aikido Journal was mine. It outlined the antics; first dan to 7 th dan to 6th dan to no dan...in a couple of weeks time as well as the mentioning of those adds they used to do. It caused Stanley some trouble and he decided to do an editorial.
    Right after that the this guy writes in out of the blue (Who would that be? Why, it would be you!..heh heh) oultining the same "view" of the Fab three.

    This was-unfortunately- my single encounter with you and your assessment of things. It was spot on then-it is spot on now.
    Gee-what a surprise
    I've my own stories of truly bizzare communications; death threats and arrest threats after exposing them. Oddly enough, when I have met them-it is a different story altogether.

    Anyway, my position holds that they are not of any fringe (as you say)
    They simply do not exist in it and are of no consequence to the art in anyway.

    As for E-budo and other media..
    Heres my thoughts Dave.
    Stanley and I talked for a while about what and IF I should write in to address these guys. What I used to finally convince him to let me write that into Aikido Journal was Edmund Burke. As Burke wrote "all that is neccessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
    While E-budo and all this stuff can be truly bizzarre-don't forget that while you see people talking tripe-it has done more to expose frauds and give out accurate information to many honest and interested people in these arts then- any other medium we have had .
    Another quote of mine is "To whom much is given-much is required."
    I believe there is a way to disseminate and help guide without sacrificing personal or profesional integrity.

    Anyway glad you wrote in then and now. Hope to see you some where.

    Cheers
    Dan
    P.S.
    Your line...cross between PBS , The Twilight Zone and the Beverly Hillbillies."
    I fell over laughing. I'm stealing that -Its mine I tell ya..back off
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 13th March 2004 at 13:07.

  12. #57
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    What are you guys talking about? "Graham Lewis" is awesome. No one goes through the ranks like that guy. Iím sure in a few years he will be the soul inheritor of main line Diato Ryu (or at least he may publish some where that he is).

    All of my sarcasm aside, Iím with Dan on this one. I met Graham Lewis years back (with Dan) and aside of having achieved the reading level of a 4th grader (I have read some of the letters he sent out in retaliation to being exposed as a fraud) I donít think he has achieved to much else. Much less any claims he may have made to know anything concerning Diato Ryu.

    So just sit back and take what he says for what it isÖ Comedy.
    Andrew Prochnow

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    Just a side question.....

    Apart from the individual organizations knowing whos is who regarding rank and standing, is there some general clearinghouse for practitioners. By this I mean that if somebody popped-up stating that they were, say, Kodokai, members of that organization would know, right? But what would be the drill if someone simply turned-up stating that they taught DRAJJ without specifying a particular affiliation? I am also curious what the take would be on a person who has studied DRAJJ and produced some new lineage, perhaps after the fashion of Doshin So and the Shorinji Kempo folks? In similar fashion, someone like Arnesi (sp?) in Mass. Is he considered Yanagi-ryu under Sensei Angier or something else? Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

  14. #59
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Hey back at ya bud
    For Yanagi, Yoshin or Daito ryu-Refer to what I said above. If you have been or are currently involved -you are known by those who have been or are currently involved. Its that simple. Its like Koryu.
    You are talking about what; a couple of dozen folks?

    For anyone to have trained in it-and then set off to do their own thing? There are quite a few. DR is quite deep and few stay. It was ALWAYS that way and always will be.
    Ellis postulated on this in one of his excellent books-ya really should get both his books by the way-He contends that DR is so deep that many/most do not stay to learn all of the intricate and exhaustive syllabus-they at some point catch an internal vision and head off- hense the many offshoots from DR. I am one who agrees with him.
    As for what you or I or anyone else thinks of the arts or artists that have done that? Who can judge? Lots of people offer opinions-others would not give you a nickel for the value of those same opinions! So go do em and decide for yourself.

    Cheers
    Dan
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 14th March 2004 at 13:40.

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    Dear Dan:

    Much thanks. BTW: Is Yoshida Kotaro the elderly sword master with the wispy moustache and beard who passed away some time back? I'm trying to remember if he is the same person who was sword advisor to Mifune when Kurasawa filmed SEVEN SAMURAI.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

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