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Thread: Menkyo Kaiden & Koryu Densho

  1. #46
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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 12th June 2014 at 04:49.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  2. #47
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan Scott View Post
    Mr. Trece,

    If you are asking me what my sources of information are for my last posting, they are "Deity and the Sword". This three book series was reprinted, edited, and expanded heavily by Koryu Books in a single volume book that is a must-have book:

    http://www.koryu.com/bookstore/katori-shinto-ryu.html

    Buy it.
    Keigu,
    Hi Nathan
    Actually that really isn't exactly true in the purest sense of the word. To be clear folks. It's not a reprinting. Otake sensei was not happy with the last release, due to many errors -not worth mentioning. This new release is definitive in a way the other books were not. I can say that it was exhaustively reviewed, reworked and poured over in a way the other books were not either. It was a collaborative effort involving many people from within and out of the art today. And Koryu books is to be commended for their patience in seeing it through.
    Were I you. I would purchase a copy now-before it ends up a $700 item on E-bay like the other books have.

    Cheers
    Dan

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    Default Great Scott

    Mr. Scott
    great to know that the TSKSR Menkyo names are in both The Deity and The Sword and Warrior Tradition. I was aiming the second one for a time, but The Deity and The Sword is today as expensive as Dan suggested Warrior Tradition will be.
    For the sources I asked I would like to make an explanation:
    Knowing the sources is a valuable add to to think about information in many ways. Exemple:

    Nathan said:
    - Hyoho niten ichi-ryu kenjutsu ( 二天一流 ):
    1 – Nyumon
    2 – Mokuroku
    3 – Menkyo
    4 – Menkyo Kaiden
    And Hyakutake Colin Said:
    I am told the original method was three Menkyo Kaiden.
    This two information indicates that the structure of graduation in the Hyoho niten ichi-ryu changed through time.

    Other internet sources have other ranking documentaion for the Ryu, that can signify more changes or that someone is wrong
    The site: http://www.nitenichiryu.jp/niten.htm states

    Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu
    GRADES
    1 - Shoden: Tachi
    2 - Chuden: Tachi and Kodachi
    3 - Okuden: Tachi, Kodachi and Nito
    4 - Menkyo: Tachi, Kodachi, Nito and Bojutsu
    And the Wikipedia says:
    Shoden: Itto Seiho
    Chuden: Kodachi Seiho
    Okuden: Nito Seiho
    Menkyo: Bojutsu
    Menkyo Kaiden: All the curriculum of the ryu plus have a deep knowledge of the founder teachings.
    But criticize the sources is always good to not make some kinds of mistakes
    I don't know how to say it in English, but one of the steps in a research is called Critica das Fontes, when you look to the sources to appraise it's worth.
    Wikipedia, for example, would be the first to be suspected, as anyone could modify It anytime.

    Good Luck for us all
    -B. Trece

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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 12th June 2014 at 04:49.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Nathan

    I am sure that this thread will help to understand Densho
    I read It full every time i enter it!
    I have no intention to disrespect or anything like that
    That was only an example that have many sources in the net
    True that nothing is written in stone. Hyakutake saying that HNIR menkyo must have changed is an interesting information.
    And as I saw in other threads, Daito Ryu uses Dan ranking in these days, am I right?
    Changes can happen in many aspects of Koryu (and Koryu line of thinking modern arts)
    but whithout exemples like that how could we really say it
    I see the only exception is the stone of succession of HNIR. As I know that was written in stone

    Regards
    -B. Trece

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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 12th June 2014 at 04:49.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Default Uchideshi & Menkyo Kaiden

    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 12th June 2014 at 04:50.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    So after Takeda Sogaku´s dead no one can give menkyo Kaiden in Daitoryu Aikijujutsu ? Nathan
    or do you think one can give it (Menkyo Kaiden ) In Daitoryu Aikijujutsu /Kodokai / Roppokai / Takumakai / Sagawa ha / Kondo ?

    Maybe like this , Daitoryu Aikijujutsu Roppokai no Menkyo Kaiden ?

    like Kodokai gave Inoue Yusuke Menkyo Kaiden ?

    Is the style Daitoryu Aikijujutsu from Takeda Sogaku in essens Dead , but cary
    on in the Roppokai/kodokai/takumakai/Sagawa Ha/ Kondo/Sano/shigemitsu styles/traditions
    what do you think thats the criteria to be called Daitoryu Aikijujutsu today

    Ollie

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    Ole,

    Soke and Menkyo Kaiden are not the same...Japanese lineage is difficult. Okamoto San, I've read, uses a term "soshi". I'm not sure what that carries.

    Anyway, (I guess) he could "assume" the Menkyo Kaiden of Roppokai or Soke-ship of Roppokai. To stay in the grace of Takeda Sokaku's spirit, it would have to carry the name DRAJJ Roppokai as opposed to just Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu. I believe Yonezawa "assumed" a Menkyo Kaiden (or similar) in his organziation; although I must admit the details are sketchy and contradictory in what I've read.

    Just putting my two cents in, I'm sure our super moderator Nathan will detail the rules in much clearer form.

    Yours in Budo,

    Andrew De Luna
    Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu
    Last edited by lucky1899; 26th May 2009 at 21:42.

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    Beer

    Soke and Menkyo Kaiden are not the same...Japanese lineage is difficult.

    ofcause it is no the same . thats not the point here.

    Takeda Sogaku gave Menkyo Kaiden To Takuma Hisa , can Takuma Hisa give Menkyo Kaiden (in Daitoryu Aikijujutsu ) ( and yes i know he is dead ) ?

    Takeda Sogaku Gave Menkyo Kaiden to Horikawa Kodo could Horikawa Kodo
    give Menkyo Kaiden to Inoue Yusuke ?

    could Yoshida Kotaro give menkyo Kaiden in Daitoryu Aikijujutsu to Richard Kim ? when he did not recived it ?

    in one of Okamoto sensei´s interwiev in Aikinews he said only Soke can give
    Menkyo Kaiden In daitoryu Aikijujutsu.

    so is Kondo´s Menkyo Kaiden in Daitoryu Aikibudo and not in Daitoryu aikijujutsu ?
    Ollie Aikiagesake

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    Smile

    Okamoto San, I've read, uses a term "soshi". I'm not sure what that carries.

    I think its carries founder (of Roppokai)

    Ollie

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    Beer

    Dear friends
    My main interesse in this is mainly that many misusse the name Daitoryu Aikijujutsu , and use it to give there style credit,
    also from a historical point of wiev

    i am happy with my membership in Roppokai

    sorry for the misspelling

    Ollie

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    Ole wrote, "in one of Okamoto sensei´s interwiev in Aikinews he said only Soke can give Menkyo Kaiden In daitoryu Aikijujutsu."

    Now I understand your question's perspective. I'm not sure whether that's true. It is true that Kondo's Menkyo Kaiden is in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu.

    Yours in Budo,

    A. De Luna
    Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie View Post
    Okamoto San, I've read, uses a term "soshi". I'm not sure what that carries.

    I think its carries founder (of Roppokai)

    Ollie
    So what privileges or rights does that give? Can a soshi give a menkyo kaiden? That was more my question.

    Regards,

    Andrew De Luna

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    Beer

    actually i do not know for sure
    i do not think Okamoto sensei will give Menkyo Kaiden in Roppokai.
    i do not know all the rules in Roppokai , but this is pretty close ,
    Okamoto will give OkugisanDan - Jun Dairi Kyoju -4 makimono´s - Dairi Kyoju - 7. th Dan - Shihan . in Daitoryu AikiJujutsu Roppokai .

    and that will take about 30 to 35 years

    Ollie

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