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Thread: Menkyo Kaiden & Koryu Densho

  1. #31
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    Default Nakamura Ryu

    Hi Nathan,
    "Keisho Denju". I don't know the kanji used for this, but on a guess I would say that "Keisho" means either "title of honor" or "inheritance/succession"
    Keisho is the scroll of succession and it can be seen in the book, Katsujin Ken Battodo. Nakamura Ryu, although only 50 years old, uses the koryu license system as itemized below [modern equavalents in brackets] :

    1 - Shoden [1-2 dan]
    2 - Chuden [3-4 dan]
    3 - Okuden [5-6 dan]
    4 - Okuden Menkyo [7-8 dan]
    5 - Menkyo Kaiden [9-10 dan]

    Additionally, there is the "Densho" -- license of transmission. I don't know how this system actually works; I have the Densho but am ranked only at okuden level.

    Regards,
    Guy
    Guy H. Power
    Kenshinkan Dojo

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    Default

    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 12th June 2014 at 04:48.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Default

    Hello Nathan,

    Nidai Soke is his daughter, Tomoko Arai. She is not a budo praticioner, but was named by sensei (recorded on video tape) before he passed away. I just met with her last month when I visited sensei's grave.

    There are those who know how the system works, so no worry in that regard.

    Regards,
    Guy
    Guy H. Power
    Kenshinkan Dojo

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    Default Update

    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 12th June 2014 at 04:48.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  5. #35
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan Scott View Post

    In other words, when a new headmaster is designated, a special ceremony is conducted. But when densho, or a Menkyo Kaiden is issued, the recipient historically kept the issuance of it in-house until well after the teacher's death. It can be assumed that, aside from humility, keeping the issuance of densho/ranks private reduces the amount the teacher has to deal with jealousy and bickering from among their students.
    That's a very interesting quote, Nathan, especially in the context of some of the Daito Ryu discussions going on today. I'd just like to note that I suspect that things might have been a bit different in schools that traditionally practiced a shihan system (Araki Ryu and Jikishinkage Ryu come to mind) as opposed to those that have a soke system (like Daito Ryu or Yagyu Shinkage Ryu). In the latter, the quote you give above probably applies. In the former, however, a menkyo kaiden was expected to go set up shop elsewhere and teach-- that probably made keeping who had menkyo kaiden quiet rather a moot point.
    David Sims

    "Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - Terry Pratchet

    My opinion is, in all likelihood, worth exactly what you are paying for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DDATFUS View Post
    That's a very interesting quote, Nathan, especially in the context of some of the Daito Ryu discussions going on today. I'd just like to note that I suspect that things might have been a bit different in schools that traditionally practiced a shihan system (Araki Ryu and Jikishinkage Ryu come to mind) as opposed to those that have a soke system (like Daito Ryu or Yagyu Shinkage Ryu). In the latter, the quote you give above probably applies. In the former, however, a menkyo kaiden was expected to go set up shop elsewhere and teach-- that probably made keeping who had menkyo kaiden quiet rather a moot point.
    I think Shihan and Soke do not exclude each other. Tenshinsho Katori Shinto Ryu have a Soke And a Shihan. I think even a Shihanke.

    Now Expanding the list:

    - Suiō-ryū Iai Kenpō (水鷗流 居合 剣法)

    1 - Shoden
    2 - Chuden
    3 - Okuden
    4 - Sho Mokuroku
    5 - Chu Mokuroku
    6 - Dai Mokuroku
    7 - So Menkyo
    8 - Inka

    Source: Paper by Katsuse Yoshimitsu Soke
    Found in:http://www.suioryu-usa.org/bucreates.html

    Regards
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 23rd August 2008 at 05:40. Reason: formating
    -B. Trece

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengu View Post
    I think Shihan and Soke do not exclude each other.
    That's true. Just to clarify, I'm in the habit (I think I picked it up from some folks at my dojo) of referring to a koryu that has a single main line of transmission as a soke system, and a koryu that has many branches in each generation as a shihan system. These seem to be the two major categories, but those are probably very imprecise terms, and the reality is always more complicated; Yagyu Shinkage Ryu was a soke-type system, but there were at least two major lines, and the soke three generations back had at least three students besides his son who operated their own lines. Katori Shinto Ryu, as you pointed out, have one soke... but they have this other guy who is the shihan, because the soke has health problems, I think... and then there might be another line or two at some point that were authorized to teach, possibly... it's all a headache when you try to apply hard rules to koryu succession.
    David Sims

    "Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - Terry Pratchet

    My opinion is, in all likelihood, worth exactly what you are paying for it.

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    Default

    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 12th June 2014 at 04:48.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  9. #39
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    Default Humm I see..

    As I am talking about Tenshinsho Katori Shinto Ryu, anyone knows the names and stuff of the diplomas of the ryu?
    In the book "The Way of the Warrior: The Paradox of the Martial Arts" says that it have 3 graduations and only
    and that one can only accept challenges when archive menkyo
    Looks a bit dark to me.
    anyone have a light?

    regards

    -B. Trece
    -B. Trece

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    Default

    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 12th June 2014 at 04:49.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  11. #41
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    Nathan

    I am very grateful for that info
    this explains a lot for me that had only read draeguer books mostly on TSKSR
    and about your sources I would ask you to share with us the sources of your findings
    if it not lead to people to make more frauds

    regards
    and Good Luck (not very japanese but it is always good)
    tsk tsk

    -B.Trece
    -B. Trece

  12. #42
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    Default

    me that had only read draeguer books
    What's a 'draeguer' book?
    Jim Cotter

  13. #43
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by jfkcotter View Post
    What's a 'draeguer' book?
    Don Draeger (desceased) is the premier westerner who opened up many Koryu to westerners. He was a legend both in skill and knowledge of the Japanese Martial arts many of which he mastered as well as research into other cultrues martial arts. In Japan; from Tenshinsho-Den Katori Shinto Ryu, to Shinto Muso ryu to Aikido to Judo, onto Tai chi, then to Philipino arts-all under master level teachers (mostly who themselves were living legends) he was one of the rare few who could walk the path of classical kata and then get down and dirty.
    His large house in Japan was a mecca to westerners-during their training. Many of them who went on to become legendary teachers and authors. It is no exageration to say that we all owe him a debt in many different respects. He was also the developer and founder of Hoplology-the study of indigenous Budo in their cultural context and how they relate
    books
    http://www.koryu.com/bookstore/draeger.html
    bio
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donn_F._Draeger

    http://koryu.master.com/texis/master...s=SS&q=Draeger

    The new Katori book
    http://www.koryu.com/bookstore/katori-shinto-ryu.html

    Cheers
    Dan

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    Quote Originally Posted by jfkcotter View Post
    What's a 'draeguer' book?
    I think Cotter was just being sarcastic over Tengu's misspelling of Donn Draeger's name.
    After all, Cotter was the one who uploaded this clip:
    Uchida Ryu Tanjojutsu - Donn F. Draeger
    Fredrik Hall
    "To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." /Confucius

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    Default Shame on me

    I think Cotter was just being sarcastic over Tengu's misspelling of Donn Draeger's name.
    Really my fault

    Sometimes I do this misspelling because of how the name sounds in my language
    but it is still wrong
    Draeger is a great inspiration for me.
    Dan has inserted useful info of bibliograph
    I would like to add this address because have bibliograph of some of his lectures
    http://www.hoplology.com/

    I was forgetting to say that my English is crappy

    Boa sorte

    -B.Trece
    -B. Trece

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