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Thread: Menkyo Kaiden & Koryu Densho

  1. #16
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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 12th June 2014 at 03:47. Reason: Update
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  2. #17
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    I would have to revise your structure for the
    Hyoho Niten Ichiryu. It may have been different in the past. Some people who have groups formed from teachers' students might have added a few honors. But at present its.

    1. Soke
    2. Designated Soke also know as "Soke"

    This was acknowleded by Nippon Budo Budokan and the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai early this year as we are sadly going through a change due to Soke's age.

    Its no big secret. Anyone can go to the Nippon Budokan or Nihon Kobudo Kyokai and see the present Meibo (Members list) of who practices and where.

    Don't know exactly where you read it, but I get phone calls from Press/TV who have seen it. And NO I am bloody well not the Last Samurai!!!!

    We also have Menko Kaiden and menkyo kaiden as some are honorary awards.

    We seem to get by with teaching everything to one person only to acknowledge his position and thus have no need for rank and paperwork. Some get papers, others get two meter stones erected and makimono.

    You can then add to the Daiho, Shibucho etc. hardy a rank but still a position of honour.

    I might add that it may have been possible to have more than one person in a top postion in the past. But nowadays a national association of different ryu will only recognize one leader. So what do we do? Join a another association or form our own? Yes, it happens too frequently.

    I am told the original method was three Menkyo Kaiden. But its seems that you have to acknowledge if thats with a capital M or an m. Too many cooks......?
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


    http://www.hyoho.com

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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 12th June 2014 at 03:47.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    I suppose I was a bit hasty in answering and should have said that its not so much the structuring of what he could give you but what it's worth in pieces of paper.

    He really felt that any designation was a last will and testament to carry things on rather than giving out candy. A last will and testament but one that must be done before you pass on to prevent any future confusion.

    Its because a lot of past teachers have not done that we see a lot of things fall apart rather than stay together and all these lines you speak of.

    Then again at the Association level and from others I have see a "tremendous" amount of pressure to promote rank. Damn, some of these guys are rank crazy and the words Budo Seishin becomes a joke.

    I would not say its been simplified. If anything I see an urge to get away from this Soke title that we about in articles like this.

    http://www.koryubooks.com/library/wbodiford1.html

    Soke says Musashi issued three Menkyo, no more, no less. It would be nice to get back to how it used to be.

    You mentioned "Your line". Now thats the problem. As long as that comes up people will issue some sort of rank to postulate a distinction.

    All in all I am well pleased we have managed to minimalize our heirarchy for the time being. To me Soke's wishes are most admirable and democratic. The feeling seems to be that if we can do away with "Soke" it will show anyone else up for what they really are.

    It seems there are two tracks here. You can offer "more rank" to seperate the men from the boys. Or you give less to show there is only one man.

    No snobbery or posers in our group. Just a very healthy respect for those that perform and teach well.
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


    http://www.hyoho.com

  5. #20
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    Originally posted by Nathan Scott
    - Shindo muso-ryu jojutsu (神道夢想流):
    1 – Okuiri-sho
    2 – Sho-mokuroku
    3 - Go-mokuroku
    4 – Menkyo
    Seems to be missing #5. Menkyo Kaiden
    Greg Clarke
    清隆会 Shinto Muso Ryu
    兵法 Niten Ichi Ryu

    "Seek out the middle of the two we's in I"

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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 12th June 2014 at 03:47.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Just curious,
    How is it decided upon who can teach within a group?
    Say that I studied Hokushin Itto-ryu kenjutsu until I was licensed a Dai-mokuroku kaiden or any other license. Then I went home to serve my Daimyo. Would I then be allowed to instruct the people in my village in kenjutsu? Would it still be Hokushin Itto-ryu and would my pupiles be able to say they are studens of Hokushin Itto-ryu? *This of curse in a hypothetical place and time a century or two ago.*

    /J
    Jakob Blomquist

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    Originally posted by Aikilove
    Just curious,
    How is it decided upon who can teach within a group?
    Say that I studied Hokushin Itto-ryu kenjutsu until I was licensed a Dai-mokuroku kaiden or any other license. Then I went home to serve my Daimyo. Would I then be allowed to instruct the people in my village in kenjutsu? Would it still be Hokushin Itto-ryu and would my pupiles be able to say they are studens of Hokushin Itto-ryu? *This of curse in a hypothetical place and time a century or two ago.*

    /J
    Well your hypothetical case has so many things to take into consideration. Mainly with yours you chose Mongai fushutsu/Otome ryu anyway. This means is cannot be taught outside. Areas would be specified.

    Also you are talking about feudal times.
    We can only try and emulate the attutudes of service and loyalty. No one's going to chop our heads off if we do the wrong thing nowadays. If this was the case now it would cut all our memberships down considerabley.

    I would say its more or less decided who and where we teach before receiving a licence to teach. With what I have seen licences are conditional. How can we really say for sure. A different time, different severe values.

    Differing personalities and characters in any age sometimes clash. Who's to know? I would have said it was the Daimyo that would be up for lessons, not the village people.

    Most of these things are over a lifetime of practice. Not something you pick up quick and pop off home.

    Regards
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


    http://www.hyoho.com

  9. #24
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    Originally posted by hyaku
    Well your hypothetical case has so many things to take into consideration. Mainly with yours you chose Mongai fushutsu/Otome ryu anyway. This means is cannot be taught outside. Areas would be specified.
    ok let me refrase it a little. Back then (in the feudal times) I imagine every man within the bushi cast practiced with the sword (fencing, iaijutsu etc.) Who taught them all? I mean they weren´t all living, since they started to walk, in a training house, training under Ito Ittosai himself, right? Who trained the village kids and young men in the art of sword?

    No one's going to chop our heads off if we do the wrong thing nowadays. If this was the case now it would cut all our memberships down considerabley.


    /J
    Jakob Blomquist

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    Hi Aikilove,

    Do you hunt? Did your father? Who taught you to use a gun?

    Ron

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    Originally posted by Ron Tisdale
    Hi Aikilove,

    Do you hunt? Did your father? Who taught you to use a gun?

    Ron
    My father hunts and he was taught how to use hunting arms through a series of seminars ending with a hunting license (that everyone in Sweden must have to hunt). Al though he learned how to use various forms of projectile weapons in the army (he's a retired capten you see!) and so did I (in the army that is). I don´t hunt.

    /J
    Jakob Blomquist

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    The point was, in a lot of 'traditional' cultures, the father teaches his son the skills he needs to survive.

    Ron

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    Originally posted by Ron Tisdale
    The point was, in a lot of 'traditional' cultures, the father teaches his son the skills he needs to survive.

    Ron
    I that case, what ryu of kenjutsu would the average son of a samurai be taught? And the same for his father etc?

    Or was it like this: The average village son (of bushi) was taught how to handle the sword by his father. If he wanted to further study and be great he went to a school of sword. Something like that?
    Jakob Blomquist

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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 12th June 2014 at 03:48.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  15. #30
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    Sorry Nathan

    /J
    Jakob Blomquist

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