Hohan Soken for Sale

[M.C. Busman]

If you're an Okinawa Karate practitioner and curious about politics, you've probably read the links wherein Patrick Mc Carthy describes Yabiku Takaya, who was once Soken's personal secretary (according to John Sells in <u>Unante: the Secrets of Karate</u> having offered him a rank cert. with Hohan Soken's seal and signed with his name. Mc Carthy spars no shock in describing the baffling incident.

There is also an American teacher (I'm omitting his name because I can't remember it, not because I want to protect him. I'll edit it in later) who claims to have Soken's original seal, and issues certificates which he says were signed & sealed by the now-deceased masterteacher (d.1982) before his passing. Needless to say, he also claims to have the only 10th dan certificate signed by Soken, 'though most others who studies under Soken remember him as a junior man, and it is doubtful he could have communicated with Soken.

I know nobody from the Matsumura Seito traditions is going to appreciate this comparison, but to me it looks like the memory of Hohan Soken is fast joining that of Shimabuku Tatsuo (Isshinryu). Nowadays, who knows if a Soken Certificate is valid, certainly a personal hanko provides no guarantee or validation. How can one tell the real thing from a backdated maybe-presigned/stamped cert? Obviously using a dead man's signature to ascribe approval is not an honest thing to do--especially a dead man who people claim to love and respect. What is this doing to the authenticity of Soken's teachings and how are M.S. lineage folks and Okinawa karate practitioners among us dealing with it?

[kusanku]

Well, obviously those things will play Hell with the memory of the man and his system, if they are allowed to do so.

Yes, I read the Mccarthy links on Takaya that Joe Svinth posted the url's to, he got from Google.

It was quite an eye opener.

The funny thing is, the students who have such certificates appear to be continuing the tradition of ranking people they never even met, for a reasonable price, of course, and sometimes even free of charge!

Oh, well.

Okinawan karate started without ranks or belts and maybe it will end that way, as well.

Maybe we will or should return to the days when people either knew a person was a good teacher, or they left him alone.

[Ken Allgeier]

Could someone please post the , URL address you are talking about (is it P.McCarthy web page or is it other internet B.B ? )




Thank You,

ken allgeier

[M.C. Busman]

Link to Yabiku/etc. from Hakutsuru List archives:

http://www.gojuryukaratedo.com/kata/...t/DIGEST08.TXT

[Jussi Häkkinen]

Why am I not surprised. Seems to be that Okinawan karate - like all martial arts - has got its wide handful of BS-speakers.

Looks like many people claim to have received either some kind of "private teaching" or just show some certificates with blurred-looking signatures - or even with well known seals. Weirdest thing is that they haven't covered their back too often. Very seldom can anybody confirm their stories.

There's an Isshinryu-issue. I'm no member of Isshinryu-style, so I'll mostly pass this, but obviously someone has used Tatsuo's seal pretty freely and even signed some certificates _without_ Tatsuo Shimabukuro's seal.

Other issue is Tatsuo Shimabukuro's very, very close family relative (not using name here. I believe that anyone with interest on this field knows whom I'm talking about). Nice gentleman, open to tell anything what you want to know about karate. And tells that he was a student of Kyan Chotoku. In some sources is claimed that he was most notable student. OK, then, why everyone who really have been a student of Kyan Chotoku in karate tells that this man has _never_ been Kyan Chotoku's student, no matter he claims to be so. Even Tatsuo Shimabukuro wondered why this very, very close family relative is lying about it.
This issue is somewhat a thing that bugs me a little. I don't doubt that this gentleman could not be a good karate teacher - good Okinawan karate teacher. Why he has to lie, while anyone who has studied with Kyan Chotoku, even Tatsuo Shimabukuro, tells that the guy hasn't studied there.
Beats me. Or well, money and fame, perhaps?

I cannot say that I would have been very surprised about misuse of Hohan Soken's seal. Sad thing, but as long as money will be around (and trust me, it'll be around for a long time) there'll be fakes running around and collecting all the money they can get.
Personally I can say that when I see non-okinawan claiming to be a 10th dan in a classical okinawan style, I smell rotten.

Well, thats all for this morning. These things make me wish to handle my english a bit better - I could more clearly explain what is going on in my mind.

[zach]

I know nobody from the Matsumura Seito traditions is going to appreciate this comparison, but to me it looks like the memory of Hohan Soken is fast joining that of Shimabuku Tatsuo (Isshinryu). Nowadays, who knows if a Soken Certificate is valid, certainly a personal hanko provides no guarantee or validation. How can one tell the real thing from a backdated maybe-presigned/stamped cert? Obviously using a dead man's signature to ascribe approval is not an honest thing to do--especially a dead man who people claim to love and respect. What is this doing to the authenticity of Soken's teachings and how are M.S. lineage folks and Okinawa karate practitioners among us dealing with it?

Well, I always assumed Fuse Kise and his students were the last word, this reminds of something I have a question about...I posted something related in the bad budo forum, the whole "white crane" craze is related to this, theres like 800 web sites concerning "hakutsuru ken" or something to that effect, how many of these people are legit? And why are they so obsessed with a couple of advanced kata from Matsumura Seito? Who actually has empirical proof that their Hakutsuru is the "original" one? I was taken back by the whole arguing over Sokens lineage thing, why are people so obsessed with it?

[Dale Knepp]

Mr. Busman,

I believe that Glenn Premru is the name that you could not remember.

http://www.okf1956.com/home.htm

A very interesting history of Okinawan Karate organizations is on his website. It's hard to tell what is true and what is not. Obviously, it's hard to believe his entire tale but some very accurate information is mixed in with what he wants others to believe. I'm afraid that this type of advertising will go on in the West with more recognizable names being used to boster the self image and fame of commercial and some non-commercial karate instructors in the future.

Let the buyer beware.

Regards,

Dale Knepp

[Hank Irwin]

Glen Premru; the "Prancer of Isshinryu" is what I have heard him called. Real nice kata, is no KarateKa though. Those certificates have been around a long time, I'm not surprised they have "resurfaced" again. Rousselotsan responded one time to me about a question regarding taking care of frauds. I was talking about a high ranking Yudansha having his school shut down because of this and he said you could spend all day everyday dealing with them(frauds) Not so bad, so what haha! Real waza no? Most of us know (the Koryu folks that is) that Sport Karate is for children. That's what most of these guy's really are, sport fighters. They go to tourneys and hold private seminars and associate with "like-minded people", frauds, and they share their secrets with each other. That's the one thing I like about going to point matches, we still go with kumite on our minds, not points, and you meet a lot of these types there. Anybody EVER been to a Joe Corley(who's he?) sanctioned match? Holy Mackeral!!None of these guys would consent to a real match. Sorry to ramble guys but this is a real touchy topic for me, once bitten twice shy, if you know what I mean.

[Victor]

Hi Hank,

I believe you mispoke yourself with "Glen Premru; the "Prancer of Isshinryu" , as I've never heard Mr. Premu associated with the Isshinryu system. As I've read he was associated with ShorinRyu via Hohen Soken, but I can't attest to that.

I practice Isshinryu, but I've never heard anyone question Tatsuo Shimabuku's seal before. Not that Isshinryu doesn't have issues, but in 27 years I've never seen anyone care about that.

Shimabuku Tatsuo seems to have made an incredible impression with the Marines he taught to cause them to import his art to the USA (as well as others around the world) and continue it these past 50 or so years.

At the same time he was not an organizational genius, nor were his instructors. He left no formal documentation or texts, and appears to be the source for the ranking situations that continue in Isshinryu (and in other systems, too). Of course I don't know any Okinawan of his generation was an organizational genius. [Funakoshi Ginchin being a previous generation.]

As far as msyelf, rank is a very minor topic of discussion. The fact three of my instructors trained directly under Shimabuku Tatsuo is creedence enough for me.

Outside of the attainment of the black belt, the rest of the rank issue takes up too much energy for so little return. You either step on the floor and do your best or you don't. That seems to me to be the only interesting issue.

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu
Derry, NH
www.funkydragon.com/bushi

[Joe Paden]

Mr. Victor, The person they are referring to with the using of Sensei

Shimabuku's Seal without permission is his son, Kichiro. I am not saying

its true, its in an article I read, written by Sensei Advincula. If you are

interested in reading the article, I can find it and post. The article is very

eye opening.



Joe Paden,

Maryland, USA