Posted by Stanley Pranin, 06-29-2000:
Dear Mr. Leonetti,
I must say I never imagined anyone would write such a detailed message on these controversial topics concerning Daito-ryu aikijujutsu. You, Sir, are a very intelligent person and write exceedingly well for someone I assume is not a native speaker of English. You have chosen to comment on multiple issues of ranking, succession, training, etc. dealing with Daito-ryu on a minute level. I don't have the time to respond to each and every point you raise but I will take the liberty of quoting from various parts of your posts followed by my comments. I hope this format will not be too confusing.
"Before I start let me say that I feel that the ONLY correct and possible solution is the one suggested by Mr. Kondo in Mr. Pranin’s book: "Interview to Daito-ryu Masters" pp. 171 and 174."
Just so we are all together, here is the relevant quote by Kondo Sensei from p.171 of my book: "At the meeting of the dojo heads held last September [1991], the future headmaster was announced. Mrs. Nobuko Yokoyama, Tokimune's second daughter, who lives with him was selected. This decision was not made at the meeting of the dojo heads, but rather was announced on that occasion by the Takeda family...."
You will note that at this time Tokimune is already hospitalized and has been declared "mentally incompetent" by judgements handed down by the Abashiri Branch of the Kushiro Family court (September 6, 1991 and later on December 4, 1991). Tokimune Sensei no longer had the legal capacity of making decisions and his mental state was rapidly deteriorating. You will also not that it says the "head family," not the "headmaster." In other words, the decision was made by Tokimune's daughters, Mrs. Yokoyama and Mrs. Oshima, not the late headmaster. This point is important because you state that Tokimune chose his successor himself. He did not and was unable to do so due to his illness.
"I feel that Stanley’s statement, 'the "official successor" of Tokimune Takeda is Mr. Kondo', is a hasty one and rather frail, if we are to follow Mr. Kondo’s own words."
You are misquoting me here. The "official" refers to the website of Kondo Sensei and the "successor" refers to Kondo Sensei as the technical and administrative successor of Tokimune Sensei based on his certifications and gradings. You make it sound as though I and Kondo Sensei are referring to him as the new Soke. This is false! Kondo Sensei cannot be Soke.
"Some claim this School [Daito-ryu] to be close to 1,000 years old; some say rather less. However, I understand that everyone accepts it to be a Koryu (classic Japanese Bujutsu)."
Well, "everyone else" may accept Daito-ryu as a koryu, but I for one do not. I think for reasons I have tried to make clear in my writings that I believe that the art started with Sokaku Takeda. But I will agree that that is a subjective opinion.
I have no dispute with your comments on the matter of succession in general in Japan and Europe.
"Thus NO ONE may legitimately claim the positions of: a) Soke, b) Headmaster, c) School Director, d) Honbucho, e) related or similar roles, without being related to the Soke in direct blood succession line."
I really don't understand your point here. Don't you mention later in your post that Kato Shigemitsu Sensei was the Kancho of the Daitokan for a period of time. My dictionary gives "director" as one of the definitions of this term. Is Kato Sensei in the Soke's "direct blood succession line?"
"As far as Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu is concerned today, Takeda Tokimune, before dying DID appoint his successor. Thus voiding all disputes that today unexpectedly and unjustifiably arise."
Tokimune Takeda decidedly did NOT appoint a successor and that is at the crux of the problem. What documentation can you produce showing that he appointed a successor?
"Takeda Tokimune prepared a written will in hospital to the effect of what Mr. Kondo states below. However I have never seen the document myself, though it has been produced in court evidence by the eldest daughter. One party [Kondo Sensei, yes?], naturally enough, claims it is void of value as the Soke would not have been mentally fit to prepare a written will in Hospital, though no such statement has ever been presented by any doctor. So I accept that the matter is controversial only in the aspect of the Soke’s written will, as I have not seen it personally."
You're right you have not seen the will personally because it does not exist! A will is a legal document. You say no statement regarding Tokimune's mental incompetency has ever been presented by a doctor. You are right. The judgement came from the Abashiri court as mentioned above.
The whole matter of the "hospital episode" is as follows. Tokimune's younger brother, Munemitsu, visited the late Headmaster at the hospital earlier in 1991 and had him write that he, Munemitsu, was being declared the new headmaster. The whole claim was ludicrous as the "declaration" was published and consisted of a single sentence on a postcard with an erasure and no date, seal, or anything else. I possess a copy of the newsletter which includes the photo of the postcard certification.
"Written or verbal (in front of testimonies=witnesses) that this will may be, the Soke very clearly stated in it that he appointed Mrs. Nobuko Yokoyama (his 2nd daughter) as next Headmaster of the School and ruled that together with her sister, Mrs. Kyoko Oshima (the Soke eldest daughter), they should both together preserve and transmit the technical wealth of the School. (Please refer to your interesting, though partial, book: "Interview to Daito-ryu Masters", below). Takeda Tokimune successively also ruled that his daughter's son should receive full and thorough instruction by the most senior of his students to be educated to become the next Soke of the School (again refer to the interview below)."
Here you seem to be implying that this elusive will may be verbal. Again, what evidence can you provide to back up these statements?
"...The Abashiri group and Mr. Kondo included. The fact that BOTH parties agree on this point [of the existence of a will and its contents] is very important, as, once this issue is factually accepted by both sides of the dispute...."
No, it is not accepted that a will exists. Mrs. Yokoyama, Kondo Sensei, I and a few hundred others would like to see this will!
"For the issue not to be factually accepted by both parties – Mr. Kondo and the School’s honbu - it must mean that either Mr. Kondo made a false statement to you at the time of the interview, or you reported it falsely in your collection of interviews."
Or a third possibility is that your information is false.
"Page 174, [your] interview with Mr. Kondo: "… CUT … The Daito-ryu headmaster will be responsible for preserving the techniques perfected by both Sokaku and Tokimune, and BOTH (please notice Tokimune’s will: BOTH) of his children Nobuko Yokoyama AND Kyoko Oshima AND their children should succeed Sokaku Sensei, who was the inheritor of the Takeda family tradition of Daito-ryu. So we have no further comment on this matter and we do not consider it to be a particular problem".
Still no will, my friend! Tokimune did not appoint either of his daughters as Soke. Maybe he intended to, maybe he would have, maybe he should have, but he DID NOT!
"Thus at the death of the Soke, both Mrs. Yokoyama AND Mrs. Oshima (the 2nd AND 1st daughter) inherited the position of representative and technical directors of the Honbu (Mrs. Yokoyama also inherited the position of Headmaster) awaiting for one of their children to succeed them. EVERYONE ABIDED BY THIS DECISION."
Mrs. Yokoyama was the interim headmaster (as decided between her and her sister) at the time of Tokimune's death. She resigned her position shortly after Tokimune's death. Then a short time later, Mrs. Oshima's husband declared himself the new headmaster.
"At this point, both Mr. Kondo and all the other senior students in Abashiri recognised her as the next Soke publicly (as we have seen), even though she had no real technical knowledge of the Art. Everyone was respecting the Soke’s will. Everyone also agreed that the son of this woman should become the next Soke, including Mr. Kondo. It baffles me why this should change today."
Kondo Sensei has never recognized Mrs. Oshima or her husband as the Soke. No will, either!
"However, I should mention a small affair that happened just before the Soke died. Takeda Tokimune’s younger brother, Mr. Takeda Munemitsu, unilaterally announced and declared that he was the next Soke. Takeda Tokimune lost very little time, and excommunicated him in 1991 (Hamon in Japanese) thus definitively and immediately ruling him out due to this evidently presumptuous statement."
This is partially true. See my comments above. However, it was the daughters of Tokimune and senior students including Kondo Sensei who disavowed Munemitsu's act. Tokimune was not mentally competent at this stage otherwise he wouldn't even have signed such a document in the first place.
"Takeda Tokimune Soke, before dying, had asked all the Dojo Directors to respect BOTH of his daughters as technical directors of the School. Again in your interview to Mr. Kondo this is confirmed (p 174). Takeda Tokimune clearly wanted one of their male children to take on the School’s leadership."
Tokimune was not mentally competent for the last several years of his life. He may have made such a statement earlier. I do not know, but certainly not toward the end of his life. This is not mentioned or confirmed anywhere on p. 174 or any other page! Gee whiz, I'm the author, trust me!
"In case of abdication, in fact, it is correct that the nearest direct blood relative should succeed, and no stranger would have any title to insert himself in the succession line. The presence of the discussed and controversial will is thus totally irrelevant and superfluous, from every point of view: the Soke expressed clearly his decision, and if this had not been thus, succession rules and traditions would have settled the matter anyway."
I really don't understand. Now, the non-existent will on which your argument is based is "totally irrelevant and superfluous."
"I do not understand the importance that some attach to it. It appears to be rather instrumental to dispute its existence! However may it be, the FACT is that Mrs. Yokoyama Nobuko abdicated her position, publicly.
"Thus automatically the next in line, Mrs. Oshima Kyoko, legitimately entered the succession line and by all rights she is today the ONLY one that may lay claims to the position of Headmaster of Daito-ryu.
"Soon after Mrs. Oshima had become Headmaster, her husband changed his name from Oshima to Takeda Masanobu. This was done with Mrs. Kyoko Oshima’s approval, but without Takeda Tokimune’s avail, as he was already dead. I should also add that, in Japan (and less so, but also in Europe), this is effectively possible. In fact it is even customary in great genealogies that someone might be adopted or marry into the family and then change his name to that the one of his wife\father, in order to continue the name of the clan\dinasty...
"The problem, ONLY in my opinion, is that at this point Mr. Takeda Masanobu, husband of Kyoko Oshima - the headmaster, not only changed his name to Takeda (which IS legitimate) but also chose to take upon himself the title of Soke of Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu (which I feel is NOT legitimate).
"I feel that THIS was not correct for at least 2 reasons:
"a) he has no Takeda blood and thus can not enter the succession line, (if not by Takeda Tokimune’s adoption which never happened),
"b) Takeda Tokimune had died and hence could not approve or disapprove the use of his name."
Here I'm in the position of agreeing with you. The crux of the issue is that Tokimune died without naming anyone as a successor. I believe that either Mrs. Yokoyama or Mrs. Oshima could lay claim to be the successor. But Mrs. Yokoyama declined the position. This leaves Mrs. Oshima. However, she and her husband, who had little involvment in Daito-ryu affairs over the years, acted unilaterally and thus her husband's claim has not been widely recognized. The senior students were not consulted. You are stressing the importance of tradition in the "rules" of succession. This unilateral act was not done by the rules!
"Before I go further, ONLY in my opinion and out of fairness, I should also say that, if it is true that Mr. Takeda Masanobu made a haste and unilateral claim, then it is also true that Mr. Kondo abused of the title\position of representative\headmaster."
Kondo Sensei did definitely have the position of "soke dairi" (representative of the headmaster) during the last several years of Tokimune's life. This was done by Tokimune himself and is indisputable. The certification has been published. Kondo Sensei has never claimed to be the headmaster.
"In fact, I understand that soon after Mr. Takeda Masanobu’s unilateral declaration also Mr. Kondo begun to repeatedly present himself as Honbucho Somucho or director of Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu. Mr Kondo also begun to make no effort to avoid being indicated as “representative" or even "Headmaster" in numerous public occasions, as also on his web page."
You are not being truthful here and your choice of words makes you a mind reader. Here is the phrasing on Kondo Sensei's website: "Thank you for visiting! The Daito-ryu Aiki Jujutsu Web Site is your best source for information on Daito-ryu, direct from Kondo Katsuyuki, Head of the Daito-ryu Aiki Jujutsu Headquarters Dojo, and Director of the Daito-ryu Aiki Jujutsu organization."
Also, here is how he is described elsewhere on the site: "...a meeting among the heads of the various branch dojos was convened in September of 1994. Kondo Katsuyuki, appointed soke dairi and menkyo kaiden by former headmaster, Takeda Tokimune, was chosen to oversee the Daito-ryu Aiki Jujutsu Hombu as Hombucho and Somucho, with responsibility to carry on and preserve the main-line tradition as it has been passed down from Takeda Sokaku and Takeda Tokimune."
No mention of him being "representative" now (he was while Tokimune was still alive) is made and Kondo Sensei is the "head" of his dojo. "Head of a dojo" does not equal "headmaster" in English! Also, below this latter quote photos of Kondo Sensei's menkyo kaiden and soke dairi bearing Tokimune's seal are produced.
"Furthermore, ONLY in my opinion, there is another mistake. This one was made by the Abashiri senior group that shortly after followed suit, and present themselves as directors of the Honbu in their web pages."
Agreed.
"...b) Mr. Kondo Katsuyuki should not allow his webmaster (Mrs. Diane Skoss is his web master) to present him as "Representative" or "Headmaster" of Daito-ryu in her web page (www.Koryu.com)."
This is highly misleading. If you look at the site in question, the designation "representative/headmaster" is a field in a database as Diane is listing up the names and responsible parties of many classical martial styles. She makes no affirmative statement that Kondo Sensei is the "headmaster" of Daito-ryu and this iis merely a coverall classification. Look again at the site!
"And he should not claim to be the Honbucho or Director of Daito-ryu."
How would you have him refer to himself?
"Diane is a careful and authoritative scholar in my opinion. "When she was working with you at "Aikinews" magazine she always expressed fair and balanced opinions on the pages of your Aikinews magazine. I esteem your friends work, but I feel that maybe this time she might have strayed a little from her usually cautious and balanced position. The matter has surprised me, as I knew her for her very moderate opinions and strongly conservative approach to koryu in general.
"Probably, until Mr. Kondo Katsuyuki made his unilateral statements alone no one took heed of them. But when his authoritative webmaster (Diane Skoss) publicly presented him as representative or headmaster, the matter might have appeared under a different aspect. I might assume that Mr. Kondo made these same statements (or allowed Diane to make them) to counter Takeda Masanobu's original claim...."
You have misrepresented what she has done as I have pointed out above. On what do you base your last assumption?
The Soke is only Mrs. Oshima Kyoko or her son when he will come of age (he is now 7 years old)....
Mrs. Oshima's son is an adult. I think they have only one boy.
"The next issue is that you mention that the Abashiri group would have written a letter indicating their will to abandon the School. This is simply not correct. I would like to gather more information about this letter you mention, as the only letter ever written by them was to disapprove the behaviour of Mrs. Yokoyama personally and to take distances from her personally, and NOT from the School."
I never claimed that the Abashiri group wrote a "letter indicating their will to abandon the school." You continuously misquote me. I said they "resigned" from the school. The vehicle for their resignations was a dojo form called "Notification of Withdrawal/Resignation." It is a form stating the one is withdrawing from the dojo and has a check box for the reason. Mssrs. Kato, Arisawa, Sano and various others checked the "other" box as the reason for their withdrawal. If it sounds like I'm reading from the documents it's because I am. They bear the signatures of the principals of your group. You, Sir, have again been misinformed! They quit the Daitokan dojo while Tokimune was still alive and hospitalized.
"Why would such individuals resign their position in the School, if they then endowed to protect it?"
I don't have a clue!
"Please note that Mr. Kondo until 1994, 2 years after the Soke’s death, had always diligently and faithfully accepted the rule of the headmaster."
To whom are you referring? The headmaster position was left vacant at Tokimune's death and there were two pretenders, Takeda Munemitsu and Mr. Oshima. Kondo Sensei recognized neither.
"At the end of this unauthorised meeting Mr. Kondo proclaimed that he was or had been elected, as the new Headmaster."
False statement. He was confirmed by a group of senior students and dojo heads as the Honbu Dojo-cho and Somucho, not headmaster.
"Besides the totally unorthodox manner to name a representative (a vote has NEVER been the custom in the Japanese tradition, thus exposing the fragility of the action) one cannot avoid considering that at the time other students were senior to Mr. Kondo as it appears in the School's registers held by the family..."
Caro amico! The other students may have been senior in years but only Kondo Sensei had the menkyo kaiden, kyoju dairi, and a 7th dan. The most senior members you refer to received 5th dan from Tokimune Sensei. Are you questioning the late Soke's evaluation of his students' abilities?
"Thus I sincerely do not understand why Mr. Kondo should be specially regarded and take upon himself the role of Headmaster!"
He hasn't taken on this role! I repeat again! What do you keep making this assertion?
"Having known Stanley Pranin’s objectivity in all other occasions, I am surprised of your stance that is not protective of the legitimate line of succession. But this, evidently, is only my opinion, and may well be a mistaken one."
Agreed!
"As far as the Kyoju Dairi certificates is concerned, there were quite a number of them issued by the late Soke. Mr. Suzuki Shimpachi (who was also Mr. Kondo’s teacher) for one received such titles well before Mr. Kondo. These are the real teaching license."
False. Tokimune issued only two kyoju dairi (teacher's certification). One to Suzuki Shinpachi and the other to Katsuyuki Kondo. Name any others.
"My opinion is that, after all, some of these senior students LIVED in the dojo for over a decade, and were direct students of the Soke for almost 40 years..."
Who besides Suzuki Shimpachi lived in the Daitokan dojo?
"At that time I gave much lesser importance to documents and licenses as the big issue had not yet exploded into the present issue and no one even suggested that the home and Honbu of the Daito School should not be Abashiri. Not even Mr. Kondo himself!"
Not so fast here! You are shifting from referring to the Daitokan Hombu Dojo as being in Abashiri and then saying that the headquarters should be in Abashiri. Well, since the Daitokan closed down in 1994, why does the Hombu Dojo necessarily have to be in Abashiri?
"One further reason for training at the Honbu, the fourth, I gathered it only after receiving tuition [training?] there. The documented evidence I was exposed to (School registers) indicates that Mr. Kondo begun his studies in Daito-ryu rather later than what he suggests in his web pages. The first record of his studies that I found in the Daito-ryu official registers is dated 1969. Before then there is no documental evidence of his tuition in Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu that I am aware of. And the Soke was VERY VERY punctual in registering everything in the slightest details."
Kondo Sensei began his studies of Daito-ryu in Tokyo under Hosono Tsunejiro Sensei at age 12 about 1957. Also, I have in my possession a photograph of Kondo Sensei sitting next to Tokimune Sensei in a group photo taken on the occasion of the 11th Daito-ryu demonstration in 1966 in Abashiri. As you know, only the most senior students would flank the Soke in a photo. Also, how could the Seishin group have Tokimune's Sensei's official registers? How could you have consulted these when the historical documents were handed over to the Oshima family in Saitama Prefecture?
"The only documental evidence I have gained before that period is that in 1957 he was an Aikido student (he was registered at the Aikikai in Tokyo) and later an Aikido teacher in 1964 until 1969."
I spoke with Kondo Sensei today and he told me he has never studied aikido and never registered at the Aikikai Hombu Dojo. What is the source of your misinformation?
"Also, this indication (our School’s original registers), appear to confront quite well with Mr. Kondo’s Aikido past as a master of this modern art."
Ancora?
"Mr. Kato Shigemitsu held the role of Kancho (or Kangicho), while the Soke was alive. The role of Kancho (director of the House) indicates that the bearer of the title is the second in line in the School (at least this is so in the Daito School)."
How so?
"In fact Mr. Kato Shigemitsu at the time of the Soke’s death had been for 11 consecutive years Director of the Daitokan (the Soke's own dojo) and had been teaching there in the presence of the Soke himself...."
Kato Sensei resigned from Tokimune's Sensei's dojo two years before his death.
"As Stanley certainly is aware, there were a number of other students who were senior to Mr. Kondo (who was certainly a senior student himself), and although this was no definitive indication of technical ability in absence of other considerations I took it as yet an other element for my decision."
If the menkyo kaiden, kyoju dairi, and 7th dan are not indications of technical ability, what pray tell is?
"As far as other titles and or documents (Menkyo Kaiden) are concerned I prefer not to enter into details as I only possess second hand information...."
Agreed.
".... I also wish to state clearly that the rumours about Mr. Kondo’s documentation being false that led him to be tried in a court for fraud and falsification were to my knowledge unverifiable. In fact as far as I am aware, Mr. Kondo had his documentation declared to posses a legitimate seal of Takeda Tokimune Soke by a Japanese court."
Yes, Kondo Sensei was sued by Mrs. Oshima's husband. Mr. Oshima lost the case, the court vindicated Kondo Sensei and sanctioned Mr. Oshima. In a separate proceeding Kondo Sensei was awarded a copyright for use of the words "Daito-ryu aikijujutsu" and variations thereof. Technically speaking, Mr. Oshima is in violation of Japanese copyright law.
Well, I have run out of steam and time and will retire now. Sir, I really admire your intellect and powers of concentration. Once you are armed with the correct facts, no one will be able to debate you!
Also, thanks to all of you readers who have stuck it out this far!
Good night!
Stanley Pranin
**
Posted by Nathan Scott, 06-29-2000:
Mr. Leonetti,
If you don't mind me saying so, it appears through your debate (and ours) that the majority of your beliefs and opinions are based on what you've been told by the members of the Abashiri dojo and perhaps others that claim to have been close to T. Takeda Soke. They may seem like very honest, straight forward people with no agenda of their own, but when it really comes down to it - especially in the case of a debate - things need to be looked at in a very black and white form.
From a position of research, one needs to ask themselves "what do we *really* know?" (what is fact?). Step back and try to look at only the facts objectively from both sides, then try to accumulate as much primary information as possible from as many relevant sources as possible.
For instance, you've never seen this will in question yourself - you've just been told that it exists and is public knowledge, perhaps by several people. But unless you've seen it for yourself, you can't say for a *fact* that it exists. And you can't convince anyone else that it is a fact unless you are able or willing to show those who inquire about it.
As you noted, when it comes to testimonies, it is important to consider what the individual's position is, and what they would gain by their testimony (or lose).
Through the accumulation of facts, evidence and signed, stamped testimonies by primary sources, hopefully we'll eventually have a clear idea at least what the issue realy is, if not what the most logical solution is to it and if it has or has not already been achieved.
Like us, you appear to be sincere in your desire to uncover the truth about the course of events that has led us here. I submit that you are in a unique position to assist in this information gathering since you are a student of the Abashiri dojo and have occaisional access to the remaining students of T. Takeda Soke as well as several people that you believe were close to the Soke.
I hope we can continue to work together to seek facts and truth, as opposed to simply jumping to conclusions! Again, thanks for spending the time to post such a comprehensive reply.
Regards.
-----------------------------------------------
Mr. Pranin,
Very interesting post. In the interest of fairness, would you be willing (or in a position) to scan in and post the resignation forms that you mentioned on this website? It seems to me that public verification/access to such documents would pretty much dismiss the Abashiri dojo's claim to the Honbu, unless they can show proof that one of the Takeda sisters was to be appointed Nidai Soke by Tokimune Soke while he was of clear mind, and that whichever sister that may be has *asked* them to act on their behalf as the Honbu dojo.
As things stand now with them, it would seem that they don't know if they follow or are supported by Mrs. Yokoyama, Mrs. Oshima, Mr. Oshima or the Oshima's son.
Also, just out of curiousity, it would be interesting to see the post card that Takeda Munemitsu tried to use to claim his successorship. Could you reproduce this here as well?
BTW, does anyone happen to know the son's full name? This would really help in regards to clear discussion!
Thanks to all,
------------------
Nathan Scott
**
Posted by Stanley Pranin, 06-29-2000
In response to Nathan's request, here are two scans. The first is the resignation of Kato Shigemitsu from the Daitokan dojo of Tokimune Sensei in December 1991. Tokimune is hospitalized at this time. The English appearing on the scan has been added by me as a translation. I also have the same document bearing the names of Mssrs. Sano and Arisawa, and a number of others.
<img src=http://www.tsuki-kage.com/daito-ryu/kato.jpg>
The second image is the article appearing in Munemitsu's newsletter date July 7, 1991. The handwritten text in the middle is a postcard-size note saying that Tokimune is appointing his brother Munemitsu as the new Soke. Note the erasure, lack of seal, and informal wording. Tokimune Sensei was not at that time able to issue such a declaration due to his condition.
<img src=http://www.tsuki-kage.com/daito-ryu/t_munemitsu.jpg>
I hope these documents help clarify the situation.
Stanley Pranin
**
Posted by Nathan Scott, 06-29-2000:
Mr. Pranin,
Thanks much for the scans. After analyzing Mr. Kato's resignation (and it does say resignation), I believe that it does help alot.
I hate to ask this, but considering that Mr. Kobayashi has already stated that Mr. Kato had "resigned" his position as Kangicho (though supposedly, not resigned from the art), could you please post scans of Mr. Sano and Mr. Arisawa as well?
Mr. Kobayshi clearly states that nobody resigned, and that only Mr. Kato had resigned his position. I believe scans of Mr. Sano and Mr. Arisawa will support the clear resignation of Mr. Kato already presented and show an obvious group withdrawal from the Daitokan while T. Takeda was still alive.
Anyone or reasonable sensibilities will not be able to argue this point, IMHO.
Thanks - sorry for the inconvenience!
------------------
Nathan Scott
**
Posted by Stanley Pranin, 07-01-2000:
Here are the two additional scans of the resignations of the two other principals of the Seishin Daito-ryu group, Mssrs. Sano and Arisawa, dated December of 1991. Above you will find the same document for Kato Shigemitsu. These documents are important because the leaders of the Seishin group steadfastly deny having resigned from the Daitokan Hombu Dojo of Tokimune Takeda while he was hospitalized. These documents would seem to indicate the contrary. At issue is how people who resigned from the Daito-ryu Hombu Dojo can form a new group and then lay claim to being the successor of Tokimune's school from which they clearly have resigned. What do you think?
<img src=http://www.tsuki-kage.com/daito-ryu/sano.jpg>
<img src=http://www.tsuki-kage.com/daito-ryu/arisawa.jpg>
For further reference, please follow the Daito-ryu threads on this bulletin board and those on the bulletin board of the Seishin group in Abashiri, Hokkaido.
Please feel free to provide your feedback.
Stanley Pranin
**
Posted by Stanley Pranin, 07-01-2000:
[In response to a question about Honbu location:]
This whole situation is a difficult one to explain and comprehend. Tokimune Sensei died in 1993 without the issue of succession being clearly established. His younger daughter, Mrs. Yokoyama, was the "interim" Soke at the time of her father's death. However, she resigned leaving the position in limbo.
Mrs. Oshima's (elder daughter of Tokimune) husband declared himself Soke shortly thereafter. The dojos associated with Kondo Sensei which had remained with the Daitokan after Mssrs. Kato, Sano, Arisawa et al resigned en masse in 1991 met in 1994 agreeing to be led by Kondo Sensei.
Basically, either one accepts this decision or one doesn't. The battle for recognition will ultimately be won in the world of public opinion. Whose technique is the most convincing? Who is being forthright about their antecedents? Who received clear recognition of ability from Tokimune Sensei? These are the kinds of questions one must ask and answer for himself.
Sokaku may have laughed at the notion of a Honbu but remember one of the titles he used was "Honbucho."
Just a few thoughts.
Stanley Pranin
**
Posted by Nathan Scott, 07-10-2000:
[In response to distress over Daito ryu infighting:]
I tend to agree with you, but I've noticed that every time there is a heated debate, there are always a few that ask why it is necessary, and why don't we just not worry about it? My feeling is that someone has to worry about it, and if the issues aren't hashed out at some point, the style may disolve while some hide their heads in the sand.
This kind of discussion/debate is not pleasant, but is necessary to get closer to resolving issues.
[In regards to having a joint meeting of DR heads], this is very quickly becoming the next logical step in this discussion. Though the Abashiri group keeps introducing important pieces of information (from their perspective) that were previously overlooked in the numerous threads and on their web page, it is time to have some interaction.
I'm doing a little research on my own right now, and am eagerly waiting some kind of response from Kondo Sensei's group (even if it is that he is uninterested in making a statement or addressing the issue).
Ideally, there should be a meeting held with the two Takeda sisters, Takeda Hitoshi, the three heads of the Abashiri dojo, Kondo Sensei and a neutral party to document the events. Paperwork should be brought, and viewpoints should be expressed.
Mr. Pranin, do you have any interest in interviewing all or any of the Abashiri group, if nothing else just to get a clear record of their claim (sometimes positions change over the years)? I can guess why they were not approached before, but now that it has become a pretty public issue it would not hurt to at least have a record of it. All they could boast is that they were interviewed, and there may be an opportunity to get first hand testimonies and photos of evidence. The interview could just be published on the BBS if preferred.
Also, a formal interview/testimony from them might encourage Kondo Sensei to offer a counter statement. They are making some serious implications about Kondo Sensei's credentials and experience.
Kind of off topic, I had an interesting thought. It seems to me that if the most skilled exponents of a tradition were to be found at a given dojo claiming to be it's Honbu, that branches that had previously been independant might *want* (benefit) to be under their direction. However, if the exponents of said tradition were not of a superior technical level, other branches would surely suffer as a result of affiliation (unless it was a mutual, democratic structure, which it wouldn't be), as would the art as a whole. Currently, authentic Daito ryu can be found at the mainline, as well as three other major branches that trace directly to Takeda Sokaku - especially considering the variety of techniques that were taught to different individuals.
I'm not trying to say anything about this group specifically, but just kind of thinking out loud.
Regards,
------------------
Nathan Scott
Likes: 
