Kamidana debate... leftover...

[Mark Brecht]

Sorry, I typed this up while the thread was still open... It was closed when I finished.

Originally posted by Jeff Cook
In case you didn't catch it, Mark B. made this remark, in part: "Christianty has killed more people through history..."

Yeah, so what??? Is it incorrect ? I would consider this a fact.

The way Mark B.'s general anti-Christian posts were worded, it seems that he was justifying bringing another religion's practices into a Christian institution because Christians are all a bunch of murderous, greedy evil-doers and need to be straightened out by Shintoism.

Wait a minute, I did NOT consider this an anti-Christian post. Pointing out the relationship of christanity, war and money does not make it anti-christian, also in no way did I compare or even imply that Shintoism would be in any way superior to Christianity. Please do not put words in my mouth... My point was that money and power have always been major factors and motivators in the development and history of Christianity. And now in modern times, where the "church" does not have the power and wealth anymore it once had, it does have to compromise and show tolerance towards other faiths, as even the church after all has to meet the bottom line ( even they YMCA does not have to pay taxes, it neverless has bills to pay). Simply as that, my post had NOTHING to do with bashing Christianity... I just took a rather realistic and sober look at it. Which is nothing more than my own personal views, and was in no way intened to offend anybody here.

So, in typical e-budo fashion, you have made erroneous and negative assumptions. Again I ask, why is it the norm for people on this board, in this kind of discussion, to automatically assume the worst, and project their negative feelings onto it?

Oh man Jeff, this is redicioulus. You have thrown accusations out here at John, creating a negative picture of him or his actions or non actions. Than in the same post, you back paddle and said that you give him the benifit of the doubt... Than why bring it up in the first place...? In such a manner as starting a post, bringing up the term "bad budo", etc. You threw things out, but did not take responsibilty for them... Say one thing, and than back paddle..., no accountability, however the bad seed is planted...

BTW, what was up with that NAZI comment ??? I give you the benifit of the doubt that that was not a low blow against me, as I am German. However I would like to tell you:

"...in typical e-budo basher fashion, you have made erroneous and negative assumptions".

Do you actually understand what the term NAZI stood for??? That could have described any member of the NAZI party... Which the majority of Germans were... Does that mean every German was activly killing Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, handicappeds... Certainly NOT... Btw, my grandfather refused to join the Nazi party. When he got a cold, they denied him the antibiotics (as he was outed for not being a Nazi). He died at the age of 28 on leumonia... One of my grandmas was a NAZI, did she ever kill anybody... Certainly not... You can be sure that not everybody, agreed with what was happening... (any clue how my assassination attempts were made against Hitler...). And you can be sure the majority of Nazis, were not member of the SS stormtroops... Gee... and you are telling me about making assumptions... or about offending people...

Again going back to the original questions of the thread. I think the entire thread was a waste. As I have stated before, that I believe the administrative staff of the YMCA and prospective students, will easily realize that the "Kamidana" has somekind of philosophical, sprititual or religious meaing, and that they are intelligent enough to than inquire about it... and that it is not just a dollhouse for the kids to play (the fact that it is mounted far above the floor will close out the doll house possibility for sure...). So I don`t believe that "bad budo" applies here at all...

[Jeff Cook]

"quote:
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Originally posted by Jeff Cook
In case you didn't catch it, Mark B. made this remark, in part: "Christianty has killed more people through history..."
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Yeah, so what??? Is it incorrect ? I would consider this a fact."


Mark B., How does a religion kill people? Again, people kill people, people of various religions. Every religion ever known has had murderers in their ranks. It has nothing to do with religion. Now if you said that many warriors, soldiers, and/or murderers throughout history were Christians, that would be a bit more concise and impossible to refute. Did Christianity somehow drive these people to kill? Does Christianity preach violence? Is that Christianity's doctrine, to go out and kill in the name of Jesus Christ?

"Wait a minute, I did NOT consider this an anti-Christian post. Pointing out the relationship of christanity, war and money does not make it anti-christian, also in no way did I compare or even imply that Shintoism would be in any way superior to Christianity. Please do not put words in my mouth... "

I did not mean to put words into your mouth. I was letting you know how you were coming across, hoping that you would take the opportunity to clarify your position, which you have (in a clear and intelligent way, I might add!) This technique of communication is called "mirroring," whereby I tell you what I am hearing you say, so you can correct any misperceptions.

"Oh man Jeff, this is redicioulus. You have thrown accusations out here at John, creating a negative picture of him or his actions or non actions. Than in the same post, you back paddle and said that you give him the benifit of the doubt... Than why bring it up in the first place...? In such a manner as starting a post, bringing up the term "bad budo", etc. You threw things out, but did not take responsibilty for them... Say one thing, and than back paddle..., no accountability, however the bad seed is planted... "

That's strange. John obviously didn't see it that way - read his last post on the thread in question - that says it all. I asked what people's opinions/thoughts were on the topic, I asked if it was bad budo or not. No bad seed was planted. I did not "create a negative picture" of him - YOU did, in your own mind, by being insulted that I would question anything John did. (Why would you have any problem with me questioning John's actions? Has John achieved some God-like status to where he can't be the topic of discussion?) I asked direct questions without passing judgement. At no time did I criticize John or state that it was bad budo. You are being defensive and paranoid.

"BTW, what was up with that NAZI comment ??? I give you the benifit of the doubt that that was not a low blow against me, as I am German. However I would like to tell you:

"...in typical e-budo basher fashion, you have made erroneous and negative assumptions".

Do you actually understand what the term NAZI stood for??? That could have described any member of the NAZI party..."

Mark, that certainly was not a shot at you. You know I don't do that. I am German also; my grandfather's name was Otto Adolph Rauth. A dear friend of mine is a German (Jeurgan Berthold) who was a kid in Nazi Germany - his father was an officer in the Waffen SS (he has shown me all of his father's memorabilia, including the skull-and-crossbones ring - you know the one I am talking about?)

" And you can be sure the majority of Nazis, were not member of the SS stormtroops... Gee... and you are telling me about making assumptions... or about offending people..."

The Nazi party was a political party. It had a political agenda. Part of that OFFICIAL political agenda was the persecution and murder of Jews, and the stated superiority of the Aryan race. That was the OFFICIAL position of the Nazi party. If you were a card-carrying Nazi, you supported that position (many joined reluctantly as you said, but they still joined). Your grandfather was a very courageous man for not succumbing to the pressure of joining the party - he did not support their position. I sympathize with anybody who was forced into joining the Nazi party, but I don't excuse them for it, and neither do I condemn them for it. They could have done what your grandfather did, or what my family did (they fled Nazi Germany). In spite of that, I am sure there were many Nazi's who were good people. However, the Nazi party was still an evil empire. Mark, do you know anybody today who claims to be a Nazi? Not somebody who was a Nazi, but one who says they are today? What kind of person are they?

Christianity does not have an agenda encouraging killing or murder. The Nazi party did. That is the difference.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[John Lindsey]

Sorry, I typed this up while the thread was still open... It was closed when I finished.

Ah, so there is a God!

I was hoping this thread would not rise from the dead.

PM or email please....

[ghp]

Jeff,

. Did Christianity somehow drive these people to kill? Does Christianity preach violence? Is that Christianity's doctrine, to go out and kill in the name of Jesus Christ?

Weeeeelll .... I've been staying outta this one well enough. I'm not picking fights or agreeing/disagreeing with anybody so far. However; reference your above quote, do the words "Crusader," "Militum Xpisti," or "Knight Templar" ring a bell? Granted, it was a few hundred years ago, but I think the entire Crusading period would fit your doctrinal description very well. Perhaps the church was not responsible for these operations -- and maybe it was only the politicos who abused the current belief system encouraging people to "take to the cross." Promises that a place was secured in heaven if they went on crusade and/or if they "killed a saracen for Christ." The crusaders were known to have raped, killed, pillaged, and burned along the route before arriving in Jeruselm (okay -- probably just boys getting caught up in the fervor of the times, probably not related to the Church). During the Third Crusade, Richard 1 ordered over 2,000 prisoners beheaded in a single day because of an impass during negotiations with Sala a'Din. Again, not directly related to the church -- but Richard was working the issue in the name of the church.

[Hey, anybody with some scholarship in this area -- feel free to jump in and correct me...]

And that's all I'm gonna say. I don't want to get involved in a body count -- good gracious me, there's enough of that going around.

But Jeff, they did kill in the name of Jesus Christ.

Regards,
Guy