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Thread: Judo's Newaza Masters

  1. #1
    Kit LeBlanc Guest

    Default Judo's Newaza Masters

    Okay everybody.

    I am looking for the names to conjure with in Judo newaza. Any leads to more names, details, books, videos notes, research, etc. etc. would be helpful.

    So far I have heard the following:

    Old Timers:

    Kanemitsu ?, Ushijima ? , and Oda Tsunetani.


    I know there is a video out there somewhere on Oda's newaza, and EJ Harrison wrote a book "Judo on the Ground" about Oda's teachings. The video I saw was being sold in Europe and I couldn't seem to locate a U.S. supplier.

    Draeger mentions that Mifune was a strong proponent of newaza as well, but his sterling tachiwaza seems to have eclipsed that. Anyone else have anything to share on that?

    And of course the Kosen judo folks like Kimura and some more recent folks following in the Kosen path. I know of the Budokan video series and the new ones put out by Quest.

    Today:

    Kashiwazaki, and I have heard that a Neil Adams was/is a demon on the ground. Any others to look for today?


    Kit

  2. #2
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    Hi Kit,

    In the Kawaishi system of Judo, leg locks and neck/spine locks were/are part of the system. Kawaishi published some books I think you'll find some examples in My Method of Judo by Kawaishi, originally published in French, translated by E.J. Harrison.

    I think I have an adress in Paris where you will probably find the Oda video, I don't have it at the office if you want to I can mail it tommorow.

    I heard from an old-timer judoka that Gunji Koizumi was also very good in ne-waza (his first style was Tenjin Shinyo Ryu).

    Best Regards,

    Johan Smits

  3. #3
    Kit LeBlanc Guest

    Default Yup...

    Johan,

    Thanks. How's the Xing Yi?

    I remember Tani was supposed to be really adept at newaza, and he did Fusen-ryu I believe. Overall it sounds like the old timers were more balanced between tachi waza and newaza.

    I saw the French tape. I couldn't figure out how to order it here in the States....


    Kit

  4. #4
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    Hi Kit,

    Didn't do a lot of training lately in Xing Yi, mostly standing post.

    About the tape, I think you can contact the firm and order it directly. I'll send you the adress tomorrow.
    By the way I think there's a Chinese style which specialises in ground fighting it's called Dog- boxing. Can't remember the Chinese name, I'll check.

    I think both Koizumi and Tani taught at the Budokwai in London, they may still have material. I saw a tape with Koizumi once, he showed some ground work, not too much though. What you could see is that Koizumi was immensely relaxed when he executed his techniques, at some times he almost looked slack, also in newaza. I haven't seen that very often.

    Best,

    Johan

  5. #5
    Kit LeBlanc Guest

    Default Ruff Ruff

    Johan,

    Now, isn't the essence of Xing Yi found in the standing post after all? That is hard to accept an hour into San Ti Shi, I know.... Heh heh heh.

    The Chinese art you are talking about is Gou Quan. I have heard "Di Tang Men" as well, but not sure it is the same art. It is not "wrestling" newaza. More kicking from the ground, sweeps, and tumbling.

    Thanks in advance for the address.

    Kit

  6. #6
    MarkF Guest

    Default

    Originally posted by johan smits
    By the way I think there's a Chinese style which specialises in ground fighting it's called Dog- boxing. Can't remember the Chinese name, I'll check.


    Dog with a hair lip:

    mark mark. mark mark

    Mark mark.

    I know, but when I first heard that as a youngster, I laughed so hard I didn't realize on whose a$$ the joke was.

  7. #7
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    Mark,

    It's funny in a way but I do hope you threw the culprit repeatedly with whatever- otoshi after he made the joke.

    Was it in one of your posts that Kito Ryu jujutsu being practised in the USA was mentioned, some time ago? If so, is it still practised?

    Best Regards,

    Johan Smits

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    Hi Mark,

    In a way it's funny but I do hope you have thrown the culprit repeatedly with whatever-otoshi after he made that joke.

    I have a question, some time ago Kito Ryu jujutsu was mentioned in (I believe) some of your posts. If I remember well it is (or was) praticed in the USA. Have you got any more info on this?

    Best Regards,

    Johan Smits

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    I really,really hate it when this happens.

    Sorry.

    Johan

  10. #10
    Kit LeBlanc Guest

    Default Shhh, not too loud!!!

    Russ,

    How could I forget Maeda?

    Don't say that too loud! There are probably some lurkers around who won't want to hear that.

    Funny, I have seen everything on the web and in conversation from high ranking judo/jujutsuka saying Kosen judo was a myth (don't tell Kimura, or I guess the Budokan, since they have four tapes out on this mythical method....) to those saying there is no basis to claim that BJJ is related to Kosen judo, because BJJ advanced the technique so much further, BJJ incorporated techniques from the guard (dojime), sweeps, "helicopters" etc.

    Then of course the occasional BJJ'er has seen the Budokan Kosen judo videotapes, including I have heard some teachers, and been surprised to see all those techniques that the Brazilians supposedly innovated, being done by old Japanese guys who had been doing it for years.

    Don't get me wrong, I have the utmost respect for BJJ, and I practice it as well as judo. I think many BJJ masters have done with their tokui waza on the ground what so many others have done in the past...furthered the art, added new dimensions, and new expressions to what they do. I just don't see it as so innovative and different from judo, particularly in light of Kosen judo, as so many pure BJJ devotees do.

    Kit

  11. #11
    Ben Reinhardt Guest

    Default Re: Judo's Newaza Masters

    Originally posted by Kit LeBlanc
    Okay everybody.

    I am looking for the names to conjure with in Judo newaza. Any leads to more names, details, books, videos notes, research, etc. etc. would be helpful.

    So far I have heard the following:

    Old Timers:

    Kanemitsu ?, Ushijima ? , and Oda Tsunetani.


    I know there is a video out there somewhere on Oda's newaza, and EJ Harrison wrote a book "Judo on the Ground" about Oda's teachings. The video I saw was being sold in Europe and I couldn't seem to locate a U.S. supplier.

    Draeger mentions that Mifune was a strong proponent of newaza as well, but his sterling tachiwaza seems to have eclipsed that. Anyone else have anything to share on that?

    And of course the Kosen judo folks like Kimura and some more recent folks following in the Kosen path. I know of the Budokan video series and the new ones put out by Quest.

    Today:

    Kashiwazaki, and I have heard that a Neil Adams was/is a demon on the ground. Any others to look for today?


    Kit
    Nobuyuki Sato, known as "Mr. Ne Waza". Kashiwazaki as you mention. Neil Adams ditto. Okano wrote a whole "Vital Judo" book on ne waza which is excellent, but out of print in English. There have been many ne waza technicians in recent and not so recent history (Russian and European as well).

    Ben Reinhardt

  12. #12
    MarkF Guest

    Default kosen a myth?

    Originally posted by Kit LeBlanc
    Funny, I have seen everything on the web and in conversation from high ranking judo/jujutsuka saying Kosen judo was a myth (don't tell Kimura, or I guess the Budokan, since they have four tapes out on this mythical method....) to those saying there is no basis to claim that BJJ is related to Kosen judo, because BJJ advanced the technique so much further, BJJ incorporated techniques from the guard (dojime), sweeps, "helicopters" etc.


    So how and from whom did the Kosen myth come, anyway? High-ranking can mean big talking more often than not these days. Ground fighting certainly isn't a myth (well, if you base your knowlege of judo on the Olympics as your example of judo, I suppose in a way, ground fighting can look more like a myth than it is in reality). But even here many matches were won on the ground. Go back in the records of Sydney and see how many were won with kami shiho gatame (all matches).

    My guess is that judo being what it is, some folks take to groundwork just as others do trying to maintain a standing tai, and want little or nothing to do with it (ne waza).

    But what would make a school of Kodokan judo which concentrates more on groundwork seem so extraordinary?

    All three of my dojo on the way up spent about forty percent of randori on the ground, and escaping was taught as much as maintaining your balance and center over uke.
    *****

    So how did the myth really begin and are BJJers responsible for this? Is there a reason judoka would deny it and for what purpose?

    Anyone with an answer is welcome to e-squash all rumors and exaggerations.


    Mark

  13. #13
    efb8th Guest

    Default

    Hi, Kit.

    Kazuzo Kudo's DYNAMIC JUDO (grappling techniques) is the best illustrated, most comprehensive newaza book I have ever seen.

    The under-floor photos through glass really show the details. In addition, Kudo adds the appropriate defenses and counters for nearly all his waza. The book is a bit pricey (appx. $100) but a paperback is available, and only slightly abridged, for about $25-50. The companion text is just as good and covers nage. Splendid stuff!


    Regards

  14. #14
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    Usejima in the fifties was the best.

    Shirai was very good and taught a ground self-defence system.

    Jack Bieler
    Denton TX

  15. #15
    DavidMasaki Guest

    Default

    Mifune's The Canon of Judo also has a section on groundwork and many of the techniques are exactly the same as what I learned in GJJ. There's lots of triangle chokes and other attacks from the guard position. For example:

    http://www2.hawaii.edu/~mdavid/canon/163.jpg

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