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Thread: Saigo Shiro (aka: Shida Shiro) / "Yama arashi"

  1. #46
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    Interesting post
    I wish I could really add some stuff and not make just a empty comment

    The theory that Yama Arashi is more like the style of fighting of Saigo is not just unlikely. But untrue. Yama Arashi was a part of Kodokan Judo.
    I asked my university Judo Sensei how would be a Yama Arashi.
    He said he was not expert in doing it, but show me what it would be like. (and appeard to be a verry strong throw in my opinion, but I am mudansha)
    So he gave me a copy of one very interesting book owritten by Conde Koma (Mitsuyo Maeda) in 1935 that included Yama Arashi in the list of Kodo-Kwan Judo (in that time portugese had no standartization of translation and stuff to japanese) as some other techniques that do not exist in kodokan Judo of today.
    So even if Saigo was the only one to use it in competition (shiai or whatever) it do not means that they didnīt trained it. and reagardless the origin, it reached Kodokan Judo and become for a time one of Itīs thecniques

    I do not think Kano had just lied. This coud be just his interpretation of what he saw. If. But this is only my opinion.
    -B. Trece

  2. #47
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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 12th June 2014 at 04:23.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  3. #48
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    Nathan - I won't go into exhaustive detail here, (I'm addressing some of these <elsewhere - hopefully pub. in the spring> but a few points:
    1. Saigo was adopted AFTER he was in Tokyo. When did he come? Age 14 or was it 16?
    2. There is little evidence that he had much contact with Tanomo - period. During his childhood, Aizu was at war and Tanomo was pretty busy. He was either an illegitimate son (who was NOT raised in the same home) or a distant relative, orphaned by war.
    3. He had little contact with Tanomo once he was in Tokyo - except, we may conjecture, by letter.
    4. There is a lack of evidence - total lack, actually - that Tanomo did any bujutsu training, other than assertions by Tokimune.
    5. I've never - ever - heard of any claim that Saigo and Takeda were acquainted. Where did you get that? Furthermore, Saigo left Tokyo after only a few years, when to the south of Japan, and other than kyudo, all accounts known claim that he discontinued all martial arts practice. Takeda, it has been asserted, was friends with Kano - that would have been post 1900 - and Saigo Shiro was long gone by the time that such acquaintance would have happened. On the other hand, I've read others who state that they didn't know each other. Personally, I doubt they did. My reason is that Kano was so blown away by UEshiba - if you read Mochizuki's account, he doesn't say anything like, "Wow, this guy is just like my good friend, Takeda." Instead, Kano was apparently startled by Ueshiba's skills - and delegated some people to "get" them and bring them back to the Kodokan. If he had been friends with Takeda - given how he tried to incorporate anything strong into the Kodokan (note how he tried to do this with Funakoshi, and with different koryu) - he surely would have tried, openly, to get Takeda to teach him or more likely, his students. This is speculation, I admit, but it follows a pattern of Kano's whole life. Heck, he openly describes researching Western wrestling books to figure out a technique to beat a massive sempai in Tenjin Shinyo-ryu, I believe, and came up with a version of kataguruma. This is a remarkably open, unegotistic man - in that day and age, he "admits" incorporating a western technique to win against a compatriot.
    6. Yes, the skills that Saigo is described as having are remarkable - much like some descriptions I've heard of Mifune, for example. But one statement by Arima - who, btw, was not the best historian in other respects - does not establish much at all. I remember asking one prominent Kodokan teacher how good Saigo must have been. And his reply - "consider the times. There weren't many people training - and the art as really developed. They didn't even have uchikomi practice. He was probably like a good college yondan today." I'm not asserting my informant (who had never seen him) was right either. Just that it's even easier to fantasize about Saigo than Takeda or Ueshiba.
    My point is this - you have a kid who is described by his teacher as a beginner. And after assiduous practice becomes remarkably good - just like some high school champion judo players today. How could he have at hidden aiki skills - that suddenly blossomed? Nobody describes him as walking in with anything. Defies logic.
    And on another matter, Kano was not the kind of man who was so insecure as to hide the skills that his students might have walked in with and claimed for himself. Quite the contrary - his whole history - he recruited people from other martial arts to teach at the Kodokan.
    Best
    Ellis

  4. #49
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    In my opinion, Nathan, its conjecture, at a considerable remove from the time and people in question.

    Its good you won't be putting them forward in a court of law because they would fail to meet any evidentiary standard. Sticking to this line of thought DOES imply Kano is a liar, or at minimum deceitful (including to himself, in his own private papers), without any evidence of any sort that he was such a man in either public or private life.


    Isn't there equal evidence to state that - stipulating that Saigo did come to Kano with some previously learned knowledge of Daito-ryu - that he was unable to make it work (or even to last during intensive keiko) until after he trained with Kano.

    Hmmm. That makes sense to me.

    Stay Safe!
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

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    I think the use of the term "liar" is too strong. Certainly, Ellis isn't calling Tokimune a liar since there is oral history claiming Saigo did train in Daito Ryu. Differences in accounts come from perspective. Even if Saigo was a really good fighter, maybe he didn't want to "show off" the first year and stuck to doing elementary judo...maybe not. One has to give doubt to the story being completely truthful or completely false.

    Yours in Budo,

    Andrew De Luna

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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 12th June 2014 at 04:23.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  7. #52
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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 12th June 2014 at 04:24.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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