Kito ryu jujutsu

[tommysella]

hi all!

As a Judoka I have in the last years become more and more interested in the roots of Judo.

Two years ago (I belive) Meik Skoss informed me via an e-mail that there are supposed to exist some people still practicing Kito-ryu, although he (Skoss) wasn't sure how complete the style was these days.

I now wonder if anyone of you on the list know of any still doing this stuff...?

Yours sincerely,
Tommy Selggren
Gävle Judo Club

[Barry Southam]

Friend,


I've also have been interested in Kito ryu as well as Tenjinshinyoryu Jujutsu and have been unable to find anyone in the U.S.A. who teach these arts....Let me clarify my statement...I haven't been able to find anyone in the USA who I think is legitimate in these arts and have affiliation in Japan...
I've read listings of individual's credentials within one or two martial arts organizations...That include high ranks in both Kito ryu and Tenjinshinyoryu but when I sent an e mail asking questions.....NO REPLY..... BE EXTREMELY CAREFUL IN YOUR SEARCH.....Another high dan in Sombo listed high dan in Kitoryu and eventually after talking to him....Found out he just used the name for seminars....

Consumer beware...However, it would be nice to find individuals who are legitimate in these two Jujutsu systems with appropriate affiliations in Japan....


Take Care


Barry E. Southam

Judo

[pboylan]

The only Kito Ryu that I know of is in Okayama Prefecture, lead by Uchino Sensei. They can be reached through the Okayama Prefecture Judo Renmei.

Peter Boylan
Mugendo Budogu LLC
Martial Arts Books, Videos and Equipment from Japan
http://www.budogu.com

[tommysella]

Thanks Peter!

Do you know if they can be reached by e-mail?

Regards,
Tommy

[tommysella]

Well, I don't belive Kano have done so much about the techniques in the Koshiki no Kata. I have the original kata on video and it's only some minor changes that Kano did.

Tai, for example, is the same. In Yume no Uchi (Hatsumi Sensei seams to use Mu Chu, but I belive the Kanji is the same) it is only Ukes attack that is a bit different. In Roukuhi Uke attacks Tori with his hands uncrossed, instead of the crossed hand as it is performed in Koshiki no Kata.

It would be interresting to hear in what degree the techniques are different...

Best regards,
Tommy

[tommysella]

I guess you must have missunderstod me. The video I have is not the Kodokan Koshiki no Kata, but the original Kito-ryu Kata. And from what I can see it's only minor changes, except for one technique that doesn't include a throw as a defence but a control technique from behind.

Best regards,
Tommy

[MarkF]

Hi, Tommy,
If they are the original kitoryu no kata, they were done in armor. On your video, were they so dressed?

I'm interested as to who performed the kata, what year, etc. It seems the last bastion of secrecy is the kitoryu no kata as even when performed, only a sample is given.

But original kitoryu, that would be something.

Mark

[kitodon]

I am a Kito Ryu pratitioner in Australia we are afuilliated with the Japanese Hombu who bestow our ranks via our head who is an 8th dan. My shihan is a 6th dan and the highest pratising rank in Australia.

The Koshiki no Kata is supposed to be done in full armour, but due to the constraints and expense of this we only undertake this in a gi and hakama. I am sure however that it is demonstarted occassionally as it was meant to be.

The Judo version is very close bar some small refinments, however, Kito Ryu uses more Aiki principles.kodakan Judo I would suspect was more allgned but the sport seems to have lost a bit of the underlying principles or Aiki and I see many partictioners using strengh to acheive a result. In otherwords Aiki is part of the essence of the ryu and while throwing is pre-eminent in the art strangles, locks, holds, and breaks are equally valued. It would be fair to say that each is not mutually exclusive but combined for when an attack or defense is undertaken.

While we learn form and the principles or breaking balance and fluid movement. We also learn to understand the body and it's charater much like moderm Aikido teaches now. At it's essence you should be able to preform techniques without strength and use the oppoent to facilitate the technique.

We also intergate Bo and Sword within the higher ranks.

Our school ranks us in JUDO until 4th degree then we them must undertake further study as a judoka else where to quality for our black. The style itself has no belt ranks at all. A cherry blossum gi patch is awarded for each level.

I hope this helps a little....

Cheers,

Donald Taylor

[Mateo]

For viewing Kito ryu here is a video as recorded by Japanese Ministry of Education (Nihon no Kobudo series)

http://www.budovideos.com/shop/custo...77&cat=&page=1

Apparentally the original techniques described in Kito ryu's "jin no maki' are identical to those of the Koshiki no kata so one might be pretty close to original if one found a senior judo teacher who had done a lot of work with that kata.

I'll defer to MarkF there

Perhaps he might be able to recommend someone.

[MarkF]

Originally posted by Kitodon]
[b/]I am a Kito Ryu pratitioner in Australia we are afuilliated with the Japanese Hombu who bestow our ranks via our head who is an 8th dan. My shihan is a 6th dan and the highest pratising rank in Australia.

[/b]


Let's see. Mr. Taylor, you are affiliated with Hombu in Japan in Kito-ryu and hombu gave permission to your teacher to teach a koryu along with Kodokan Judo and you give dan-i grades. That IS interesting. I wonder if Uchino-Sama knows about it.

If you know so much about Kito-ryu, don't you think there is a bit of conflict here? While I am sure your 'master' is highly graded, an 8th dan in Japan in kito-ryu would draw stares from people involved in budo while the original school of kito-ryu operates quietly, rarely giving anyone permission to teach its waza. Doesn't that make you question what you do as probably judo mixed with a jo, bo, or any other weapon, plus the fact that it probably isn't really Kodokan Judo (I am sure your misspelling of Kodokan as 'kodakan' is just a typo though some people did and still do romanize it [wrongly] that way)?

Have you never asked yourself questions about what it is you really do?


BTW: A 6-dan in Kodokan Judo is rarely given to anyone with less than forty years experience and that still puts some short of the time-in-grade requirement. I won't even go into what it takes to be graded 8-dan in Judo. As an aside, who graded the hombu 'master' 8-dan? The BOD?


Thank you very much. Indeed, your post was very helful.



Mark

[Mukeido]

Originally posted by Kitodon]
I am a Kito Ryu pratitioner in Australia we are afuilliated with the Japanese Hombu who bestow our ranks via our head who is an 8th dan. My shihan is a 6th dan and the highest pratising rank in Australia.

Let's see. Mr. Taylor, you are affiliated with Hombu in Japan in Kito-ryu and hombu gave permission to your teacher to teach a koryu along with Kodokan Judo and you give dan-i grades. That IS interesting. I wonder if Uchino-Sama knows about it.

If you know so much about Kito-ryu, don't you think there is a bit of conflict here? While I am sure your 'master' is highly graded, an 8th dan in Japan in kito-ryu would draw stares from people involved in budo while the original school of kito-ryu operates quietly, rarely giving anyone permission to teach its waza. Doesn't that make you question what you do as probably judo mixed with a jo, bo, or any other weapon, plus the fact that it probably isn't really Kodokan Judo (I am sure your misspelling of Kodokan as 'kodakan' is just a typo though some people did and still do romanize it [wrongly] that way)?

Have you never asked yourself questions about what it is you really do?


BTW: A 6-dan in Kodokan Judo is rarely given to anyone with less than forty years experience and that still puts some short of the time-in-grade requirement. I won't even go into what it takes to be graded 8-dan in Judo. As an aside, who graded the hombu 'master' 8-dan? The BOD?


Thank you very much. Indeed, your post was very helpful.

This one has been just under the radar for a little while now.

Jiu-Jitsu Kito Ryu Japan

ADDRESS
Geelong
VIC, 3220
Australia

Ph: 0411 637 487

[kitodon]

Let me clarify a bit.......and please call me Don (Mr. Taylor is far to formal)

The Dan grades are just an nice way of the school aligning with other styles. I don't actually agree with them as such but they are awarded. We actually only get a grade of 4 degree in Judo and as high as shodan if we then train at a Judo Dojo (which is located at the local YMCA). So you are quiet right I have no rank in Judo worth mentioning.

Our Kito Ryu ranks are not belt specific and we are only officially awarded a black flower (patch) when reaching 6th degree, although we have a system of cherry blossoms to signify a level of acheivement throughout our progress. I personally agree with you in regard as to wether our Kito Ryu is pure as the last Japanese affilliate to visit the school was 15 years ago (I understand). At that time I have been informed that we had representatives from Japan visit at least once a year to assess our quality and grade higher ranks.

If I think about the time lines. My Shihan is 52 (Gary Spall), he started training at the age of 7 (Judo an Kito Ryu) so the style has being practised for over 40 years and longer as his teacher is now 75ish (originally Dutch). That is not a qualification of legitimacy just an observation of time the style reports to be around locally.

I know we are still affilliated and our school is registered in Japan I will dig up the detail and let you know. The original school was affiliated with Judo, Kito Ryu and Kyokushinkai Karate under the same sensei, Bill Pauw the story goes he relinquished his Judo school and Kyokushinkai Karate and retained Kito Ryu.

Both Judo and Kyokushinkai Karate are very popular in this city of Geelong and my Shihan still retains may connections with the heads of schools within the region. Other strong Matial Arts here are Seido Karate, Aikido, Ashihara ....

I have done a lot of research on this matter locally and on the history and lineage of Kito Ryu in Japan (mainly pre Kano) however, I am still not totally convinced of all the credtials and alignments or on the legitimacy of them. I will say however our school is highly respected amoung other styles in Geelong (which has an extremely rich Martial Arts Hisorty) mainly due to the high standards maintained in regard to technique and grading and the principled approach of the students.

10 Years ago Kito Ryu had around 5 dojo within the region we now have 2. Ours is the only one still remaining strong in regard to student numbers and high ranks.

I hope that clarifies that a little.

For myself I have been advised that I may get an introduction to the school in
Japan and I would like to travel and train there as I feel it is the only way I can truly assess my level and skills and improve.

To be honest I am no actually concerned with my rank as much as my ability. I am happy to have no rank at all I am only relaying what I know and don't claim in away way to hold any significant rank in Judo or Kodakan (yes a typo sorry). My only claim is I have graded and been allowed to hold a rank as bestowed on me by my teachers who have indicated that they are affiliated with Japan and have supplied detail of such and that the style is Kito Ryu and has been in this country/city for a significant amount of time (40 plus years).

I have trained in Judo, Aiki Jujitsu and Shodokan Karate also but time constraints have not allowed me to train conistantly in these styles with my commitment to Kito Ryu.

I have no shame in saying I worked for over 6 years to acheive this rank and worked extremely hard to acheive it in a Dojo were no quater was given. That was an achievement that held great expectation but didn't deleiver as I felt straight away I knew so little and have so much to learn. My journey has only started.

I hope I have not offended anyone or caused anyone to feel they have been mislead, but I make no apology for asserting what I have achieved and contributing to the debate.

Keep seeking the truth, keep refining your art, keep true to yourself.

Any other information I will give freely, just ask, not afraid to be quationed proved wrong, labasted, or anything else I more then anything am here to learn :-)

Cheers,

Donald Taylor

[Mukeido]

Keep seeking the truth, keep refining your art, keep true to yourself.

Well said. Thanks for all the clarification on how your school has progressed and its history.


All the best.

[Brian Owens]

...The Dan grades are just an nice way of the school aligning with other styles.

...We actually only get a grade of 4 degree in Judo and as high as shodan if we then train at a Judo Dojo...

I don't understand this.

4th Degree (Yondan) is higher than 1st Degree (Shodan).

Do you mean 4th Kyu?

[Casper Baar]

I don't know anything about this stuff, just browsing the threads but something Don wrote rang a bell.

Up untill 1983/ '84 Dutch jiujitsu used cherryblossom patches to indicate rank. After this time the dan/ kyu system was introduced.

Don, do you know the name of Bill Pauw sensei's teacher or the place in the Netherlands were he trained/ taught? If you are interested I could ask one of my teachers if his name means anything to him.

regards,