control

[rsamurai2]

Let me throw this out for all you sport judo guys.

In sambo in order to score tori must remain standing and in control after a throw. In judo most throws wind up with tori and uke both on the ground. There seems to be less ju and kuzushi and much more muscle and over commitment. It often seems that it is no longer a throwing contest but who can land second on the mat. It doesn’t take a lot of skill to plow into someone and knock them down but it does take skill to throw. Now the question. Would you all be in favor of a rule change that stated tori must remain in control after the throw? if so why. if not, why not. Of course, this would exclude sutemi waza, but even when executing that tori still must show technique and control.

[captainkirk]

The definition of an Ippon is- A throw in which uke lands with force on his back.Since a throw must be initiated by tori and be done with a technique, this would mandate tori being in control.If tori is not in control and uke lands on the ground all be himself, it is not a throw.If tori throws uke without any control or force or lands him not on his back it isnt an Ippon but a lesser score (wazari, yuko, koka). Contest judo doesnt need any more rules.We have enough problems with all the ones we have.

Matthew kirk

[efb8th]

Well Said!

My sensei hammered home the fact that not every throw works. Subsequently, I learned over time to initiate at least one new attack during the fall. Never be satisfied to see how the throw is "coming out;" your job as tori is to keep fighting for ippon until the arm goes up.

Don't be lilke the window washer who steps back to admire his work. Fall into kesa or yokoshiho; fall into an armlock or choke. Smother. Be tori until the fight is over, and let the looser buy the beer (or "Pay for his lesson" as we used to say).

Regards,

[dakotajudo]

Originally posted by rsamurai2

In judo most throws wind up with tori and uke both on the ground. There seems to be less ju and kuzushi and much more muscle and over commitment. It often seems that it is no longer a throwing contest but who can land second on the mat. It doesn?t take a lot of skill to plow into someone and knock them down but it does take skill to throw.

I think this is a rather negative attitude to take about competitive judo and an over-simplification as well.

The fact is that when you have two equally skilled competitors fighting, neither will give up very much kuzushi. Frequently these competitors will also be good enough to have some control of tori while being thrown, making it more difficult for tori to remain standing.

It's relatively easy for a throw to look good in the dojo, or when you have an obvious mismatch in skills (I throw my students for ippon on a regular basis). Whenever you have two closely matched people competing the results will frequently be less than perfect.

But you live for those rare moments of perfection.

Ju is an ideal, and the majority of judoka do strive for it. For every competitor whose make technique is to "plow", you'll find at least two others who try for a clean ippon with every throw.

[rsamurai2]

i understand what makes an ippon. However, sambo people remain standing after a throw. Therefore, the argument about equal skill doesn’t seem to wash. now if you throw and move in to newaza that is different. Nevertheless, I don't see that all to often, i seen tori falling on uke more than an actual clean throw. If judo is to symbolize the samurai on the battlefield, i have a hard time imagining the samurai in armor falling on each other in battle.

[tommysella]

I don't think following down to the mat is based on that on bad technique. Perhaps the reason is that the competition judokas are very good at turning out of throws. To ensure that the opponent is not turning out I belive it is better to follow him down to the mat...and you also have an opportunity to follow up the technique with some newaza.

When it comes to "battlefield" techniques...Well this is an totaly different story compared to what you see on a competition...For example if you look at the techniques included in the Kime no Kata, Kodokan Goshin-jutsu and Koshiki no Kata (particular if you are talking about the Samurais) you will see a different approach on getting someone to the ground...

Tommy Selggren

[rsamurai2]

in competition judo, albeit there is some follow down to newaza i am not commenting on that. i have seen sloppy technique in order just to score an ippon. i was always taught, and i have also read, that judo was about the perfection of character as well as technique. in the gokyu, in draegers article"anaylisis of competition" and gunji koizumi's paper on contest judo all have a common theme. contest judo breeds sloppy technique. now i am not advocating doing away with contest judo at all. only makeing it more in line with what kano wanted judo to be. if the sambo players can throw someone to the mat with control and technique at there high levels of competition, so can the judo players. are we not as technical as they? are we not as good as they are? i believe we are. again i am only posing topics for disscusuion by no way am i belittleing judo so please don't start the flameing. everytime i offer something i get a ton of hate mail in my pm or personal addresses.

[joe yang]

Consider hapkido a minute. We practise every throw to remain standing. However, we also train to follow our opponent down if we have to, fists, knees and elbows directing strikes. We even understand in the real world, given the variables of terrain, size and weight of opponent, outside influence, i.e. other combatants, obstacles, etc. a perfect throw, me standing, enemy down is only an ideal. Did you hit first? Did I fall too? Did I fall second? Did you catch my fist, elbow, knee? Can you get up? Can I get up? In the real world, the winner might just be the survivor. Me, I don't even train to win. In my world, I train to defeat the enemy at any cost. I don't know about sport grappling.

[Don Cunningham]

If judo is to symbolize the samurai on the battlefield...

I think this may be the problem here. You've made a false assumption about the purpose of judo. It was never meant to be simply a representative of a battlefield art. There is one kata, based on an earlier style of judo, which illustrates grappling in armor techniques. You can see immediately how radically different the battlefield techniques are from the more modern jujutsu styles which form the basis for most of judo.

Judo is a sport. While this may irritate many out there, it is no different than any other athletic competitions in that there are rules and referees. While I can see your point about control, I've been a judo referee and it's darn hard to see who actually executed the throw in many situations. It's hard to see whether it was a ippon, wazarai, or yuko in many cases as well. Why do you think they have three judges? It's because no one can be sure of making the call by themselves.

Introducing such a rule would only make it much more difficult to referee a judo match in my opinion. It would also eliminate many very dramatic and effective techniques from scoring ippon. I would therefore not be supportive of such a rule.

Judo is also a martial art. In this case, I would expect it is generally more advantageous to remain standing. It would certainly be preferable to maintain control of your opponent. However, this is not a scored event with referees and judges. No one cares what an observer's opinion is of the technique used in this situation.

Judo is both sport and martial art. While it shares characteristics of both, they should remain clearly delinated. I am against confusing one for the other. It doesn't make any more sense than trying to compare baseball or chess to battlefield scenarios.

[rsamurai2]

Don,
Don’t you think if tori remains standing and in control it would be easier to distinguish who initiated the throw? I know i lost a match to a brown belt when i was a white belt because my instructor thought he threw me. (I guess his rank was greater than mine so when it came to a judgment call he got the point) i had him in a front choke (guillotine) and threw him backwards (like a tomanage)so i would hit the mat first and then roll on top of him and submit him. This is a standard jujutsu tech. but when my back hit the ground first my instructor yelled ippon and i thought i won. Not the case. My sensei thought he threw me backwards as an escape. if sutemi waza OR ippons done with tori standing and in control wouldn't that make it easier to call?

[Don Cunningham]

There's always going to be some calls which are hard to make. Sometimes it seems unfair. I've lost several matches in a similar manner. It may have been referee error, being "home-teamed," or it may have actually been that the person made some move which gave them the throw. Technically, unless it's a clear sacrifice, the person who's back hit first is the loser. I may be mistaken, but I think that's the rule or at least the interpretation. You just have to take it when the referee makes such an error, though. It's all part of competition and complaining doesn't get you anything. Overall, I still think it's better not to require the tori to remain standing.

[CEB]

Yes, if tori stays standing and in control it is easier to tell who initiated the attack. Thats how I used to get burned quite a bit. I am pretty heavy but not particulary strong. If found that many sutemi waza seemed to work well for me. But if the technique wasn't real clean I would often lose a point for a throw I initiated. But they were rarely Ippons. Sloppy techniques should not score Ippons. But many Ippons are clean techniques where both parties hit the mat. Good strong makikomi comes to mind. In a clean makikomi there is no doubt who the initiator is. But, in a match between two competitors of equal skill level an Ippon is a hard thing to get or at least it was 20 years ago. But then again I walked 10 miles to school, uphill both ways ......

C. E. Boyd

[rsamurai2]

Originally posted by CEB
[Good strong makikomi comes to mind. In a clean makikomi there is no doubt who the initiator is. But, in a match between two competitors of equal skill level an Ippon is a hard thing to get or at least it was 20 years ago. But then again I walked 10 miles to school, uphill both ways ......

C. E. Boyd [/B]

i was excluding makikomis. i guess the reason i brought this thread up was my disillusionment with judo. At least the sport aspect. I never knew there were two judos. In the last few big tournaments i have been to including the senior nationals i have been very disappointed with the players. I have seen a lot of muscle being used and very little technique. Maybe this is why we can't win any medals. I know when i was taking some testosterone enhancing supplements (the legal kind) i got strong as h#ll. I could blow thru many of my peers. But was i really doing judo? I don't think so. Judo should be about technique and shiai about the exhibition of technique against players outside of your own dojo who know how you fight. When i see players using muscle and very little ju and then falling all over each other i have to wonder if this is what kano warned about or what he envisioned about judo. Like most of you, i would like to see judo grow. However, with bjj/gjj on our heals (and these people are very technical) and coaches forcing players to compete before they master any technique i just don't see it happening.

[Aaron Fields]

Let me start by saying I am not a rule hound.

In Sombo a throw is scored a point lower if there is sacrifice, also Sombo scores "wrestling style" takedowns more readily than you find in judo. The kurtki design and gripping rules allow for techniques to be applied differently.

In my experience, within both sports, there is a very different feel. Technically there is similarities, but rules, cultural context, and uniforms make for a very different sport.

In summary, don't show up for a rugby game in a helmet and shoulder pads (even though any person with sense would want to. ) or visa versa

[dakotajudo]

Originally posted by Aaron Fields


In Sombo a throw is scored a point lower if there is sacrifice, also Sombo scores "wrestling style" takedowns more readily than you find in judo. The kurtki design and gripping rules allow for techniques to be applied differently.

How does sombo scoring work? Is it a single point like judo (meaning you can end the match with a single clean throw) or do you accumulate points like freestyle wrestling?