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Thread: Can Judo be used for Self Defence

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Riehle

    The essence of Judo, also true of Aikido, is not to defeat an attacker, but to help that attacker learn the folly of his ways and, having learned a valuable lesson, move on to become a better person. We do not simply "turn the other cheek." Rather, we turn the other person, turning them, if possible, toward a more acceptable set of behaviors.

    Richard Riehle

    Sorry and respectfully, but that is nonsense. You have obviously not had somebody sit on your chest and try to pound your teeth out. The object of judo, like any other self defense method, is not to get stomped. Period, end of story.

  2. #77
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    Paul,

    Have you ever competed while an adult in judo, wrestling, or BJJ? If you have, I don't think you would have asked the question you did unless you were just trying to stir up debate. If you have not, I understand why you asked the question. It is self evident that the skills and attributes developed through judo, and other grappling based arts will provide a fine grounding in self defense. I always tell folks who ask a question similar to yours to pick a fight with a decent high school wrestler of comparable size and find out of his sport has prepared him to defend himself.

    Cheers,
    Rob Canestrari

  3. #78
    Richard Riehle Guest

    Smile Judo For Self-defense

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Vail
    Sorry and respectfully, but that is nonsense. You have obviously not had somebody sit on your chest and try to pound your teeth out. The object of judo, like any other self defense method, is not to get stomped. Period, end of story.
    I suppose we all have different goals. Certainly, I agree with you that protecting oneself from harm is an important consideration. For many of us,
    the occasion to keep from getting "stomped" is relatively infrequent. During my military service I did have occasion to engage my Judo/Jiu Jitsu training to avoid getting hurt and to hurt someone else. In civilian life, this almost never happens, although I can recall some occurrences where it has.

    Since, for most of us, the risk of being called upon to use judo in self-defense is small, we must ask whether there are other reasons for training.

    In my case I travel to a lot of different countries for work and pleasure. Besides Judo, I have also trained in Aikido, Jiu Jitsu, Karate, and some weapons. Martial arts experience does give me a slightly higher level of self-confidence -- though not the extent that I take foolhardy chances. The brief summary of budo in Aikido and The Dynamic Sphere is worth reading. In particular, the discussion of Unified Power of Attack and possible responses to it may be of interest. One of the great martial arts masters, I don't recall which one, said, "Uke is always right." There is a deeper message in that statement. One that takes a long time to learn. A lesson that some of us, including me, must re-learn often.

    The sport of Judo is going to benefit each of us according to our own predilections and interests. For me, now on the threshold of my eighth decade, the benefits of Judo are as I described them in my post. If the world in which you live is fraught with daily danger, the avoidance of harm may be the most important benefit.

    I stand by my original post. For me, and I believe for many others, Judo is not simply about not getting "stomped." When one studies the writings of Jigoro Kano it becomes clear that this was not his vision of Judo. I hope that you are able to change your environment to reduce the probability of having to use your Judo for anything other than as a sport.

    I would hope, also, that you would be able to gain insights that go beyond the concepts of combat alone. Someone once said that, "When someone holding a shield walks into the room, I want to go bang on it." When we carry ourselves in a defense posture, there are always those who want to challenge us.

    Richard Riehle

  4. #79
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    I started Shorinji Kan Ju Jitsu recently.
    The style I do is well regaurded on the various forums I do as a nice modern form of Ju Jutsu, which seems to be a large proportion of Judo and other unknown Koryu Ju Jutsu arts.
    I asked a question on another forum about how much of what I do I actually Judo and got this answer, which I thought would be of interest to you guys :

    The throws are pretty much all judo throws, but with some concessions being made to aesthetics and the emphasis of the art on momentum; e.g. in judo, ippon seoi nage is done with a straightening of the legs to get the uke over, whereas in jitsu this is considered using strength rather than technique and is frowned upon. The jitsu tai-otoshi bears almost as much resemblance to a judo seoi-otoshi as a judo tai-otoshi, which seems to me to be largely a product of it being used for swinging haymakers; the ogoshi has been modified not to rely on the gi belt grip (while this makes it less effective as a throw IMO, it makes it a more natural progression toward harai goshi from an underhook, which is pure judo and can be seen in the nage no kata). The basic osoto-gari is pretty similar to the judo kata osoto-gari, and the advanced looks somewhat more like the way osoto-gari tends to be performed in randori. Jitsu throws tend to be modified to incorporate less strength and energy usage on the part of tori (important when facing a V) and to minimise the chances of tori going to ground (unless it's a sacrifice throw); to do this they give up some effectiveness against noncompliant opponents.

    Large parts of the groundfighting are also judo-based, but this is true of most arts known for groundfighting, e.g. sambo and Brazilian jujitsu.

    Some of the standing armlocks are also found in judo e.g. reverse armlock no. 1 is standing kannuki-gatame, armlock no. 2 is standing waki-gatame (or hara-gatame if you take it across the hips/abdomen), etc. These are competition-legal, but few players have got good enough with them that they can apply them consistently in contest, and consequently they're usually taught as ground locks.
    That quote is from http://www.planetjitsu.com/viewtopic...13262&start=30
    Nick Rhodes

  5. #80
    MarkF Guest

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    An important idea in defending oneself is to avoid injuring the attacker. Professor Kano once suspended a high-ranking member of the Kodokan who injured a person while defending himself against a large gang of thugs on the streets of old Tokyo. Shihan Kano said, "A person with your skill should have been able to control the situation so no one was hurt."

    That was Yamashita Yoshiaki, wasn't it?

    You also made me feel young for the time being. I'm about half-way through my fifth decade. On some days, I feel a lot older, though. Good for you in sticking it out for so long. I wish you another eight decades or so.

    I understand Jay's point and yours, as I believe both to be possible. On one hand, there is a brutal reality to life and on the other there is the essence or spirit of judo that cannot always be learned in a few years, or decades. what you say about aikido I agree.

    Most everyone with whom I've spoken in other budo who have had a good base in judo tell me basically the same thing, that when all else fails, their judo comes out. Dave Lowry once wrote the same thing about those, compared to other early basics learned in other MA, said that it seemed to be pretty solid in that it is almost common. Donn Draeger, Robert W. Smith and others also choose the average judoka with whom to enter a bar in a not so nice part of town. Obviously, there has to be something to it.
    If uke does learn something from his experience then the ideals of the founders are complete, but life doesn't always deal from the same deck.



    Mark

  6. #81
    Richard Riehle Guest

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    [QUOTE=NickR]I started Shorinji Kan Ju Jitsu recently.
    I asked a question on another forum about how much of what I do I actually Judo and got this answer, which I thought would be of interest to you guys :


    The observations about the way one does nage waza in Judo versus some of the more recently evolved Jiu Jitsu forms reflects the way Judo is often taught and practiced in Western society. One of the most important ideas that Professor Kano introduced was that of kuzushi. Every Judo student is taught the principle of kuzushi, but that teaching often fails to examine the subtleties of that principle in practice. Another idea, almost entirely neglected, is debana.

    The Kodokan Dictionary of Judo says about debana, "... an opportunity to break your opponent's balance at the instant he begins to advance or attack." A closely relate term is, "ki wo miru." This is defined as, "Perceiving and taking advantage of opportunities resulting from specific timing and conditions occurring in a match."

    Before applying kuzushi there is a moment, in the action of one's opponent, that Mifune-sensei used to refer to as, roughly translated, "the right movement" for the application of a waza. The great judoka have never relied solely on the skill with which they can apply a waza, but the full set of principles on which Judo is based.

    It is true that, for beginners, and even for many kuro-obi, strength is a factor in learning techniques. It is also true that, bending the knees for seioe nage, o goshi, and many other techniques is part of the form we expect in their execution. This must be understood in the context of shiai where we are competitively applying our waza against someone of equal skill and strength.

    As we move ahead in our Judo training, we begin to discover the beauty of techniques such as sumi otoshi, uki otoshi, the many forms of ashi harai, and other waza that require little strength when applied correctly. Although I have difficulty executing sumi otoshi against someone of my own skill level, or higher, I find it instructive to apply it on newcomers to Judo as a way of illustrating how the higher principles go beyond the rough-and-tumble waza that we see in most shiai. The "Ju" in Judo still means "gentle."

    Finally, let me say something about the comment about ippon seioe nage. Many years ago, while I was studying Aikido, I was also concurrently in Judo. My Aikido sensei, a Rokudan in both Judo and Aikido, was alone in the dojo with me so I asked him about some trouble I was having with my ippon seioe nage. We studied my form together and he came up with a unique, Aikido-like, version of ippon seioe nage that I have been using ever since. I showed this to one of my friends at Kodokan (he is godan in both judo and aikido) and he remarked on how clever it is.

    The conclusion is that, for Judo, we find ourselves too often relying on the specific form of a waza rather than making it our own within the framework of the founding principles that make Judo what it is.

    Richard Riehle

  7. #82
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    uhhhhh...I skipped most of the comments...but like Kit said..."not this again.'

    the answer is NO, judo is no good for self-defense, neither is karate, ninjustu, kung fu, silat, krav maga, any koryu, aikido, Tracy's Kempo Karate (or kung fu, or whatever it is this week,) BJJ, muay thai, boxing, don't even think about freestyle wrestling, ju jutsu, juu jitsu, jiu jitsu, or any other spelling, finger-tip dim mak, street-fighting, what ever those silly law enforcement guys are talking about, or boxing.

    I am telling you the only thing good for self-defense, track and field...and really oly the hammer throw. You must arm yourself with a variety of weighted hammers and develop speed throwing techniques.

    Aaron (why do we indulge these posts) Fields

    www.tounge-in cheek.org or net, but for sure not com

  8. #83
    MarkF Guest

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    uhhhhh...I skipped most of the comments...but like Kit said..."not this again.'

    Well, as this thread is more than four years old, I 'spect those who were around then and posting on e-budo would probably skip most of it. I bumped it to the top for the newcomers who may like to weigh in on the subject, but Aaron, I think most were first taught that way and it sticks. I was asked that very question as the new kid on the block and I got, with the same meaning but different words, your answer.

    To comiserate a bit with a senior, the entire repetoire eloquently put to e-paper on when do you become effective, was put well by Koizumi Gunji-sensei many decades ago when he pretty much lumped the entire subject of what serves at which time, and when does effectiveness begin, to one word: Tsukuri, as one will probably be lost if kuzushi is the starting point instead of one of three ending points (or of whatever number one believes a waza to actually be). Mifune's air throws are particularly reminiscent of Mr. Riehle's essay and of Koizumi's written explanation of twelve particular throws. He seems to have simply used the word twukuri to include, at the very least the concurrent points of entry and kuzushi, but throwing does not start at the point of touching up. With proper movement throwing may not require touching at all. Sumi otoshi is the one throw (as is Mifune's version of tai otoshi) which I have yet to take an easy, painless ukemi. I do not know why, but this has always been, perhaps because the opportunity is not there to grab the eri of the judogi on uke to help bread the fall, but I am still not sure.

    There is an article reprinted concerning GK's instructions, complete with drawingss, of the twelve throws he chose to instruct on http://ejmas.com . I'll look for it after closing this wordy post.


    Mark

  9. #84
    MarkF Guest

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    Here is the link to the article mentioned in the above post:


    http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_koizumi_0302.htm

    Another short article by G. Koizumi on "Contest Judo." Here again, is the why and what for, not to mention that which one gives up to just win instead of learning from the experience.

    http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcskoizumi_contestjudo.htm

    Both are reprints, originally printed in the Budokwai Quarterly. http://www.budokwai.org .








    Mark
    Last edited by MarkF; 27th September 2005 at 09:36.

  10. #85
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    Mark --

    Also check Koizumi at http://ejmas.com/jcs/2005jcs/jcsart_koizumi_0905.html . It's from 1946, and concludes: "There is no dogma with judo. Therefore a method cannot be said to be wrong or right, but by testing it against the maxim 'maximum efficiency and minimum effort' it can be said that one is better than the other. Thus judo is progressive and each one of us is a potential contributor towards its further development. No one is perfect; all are fellow pilgrims to unknown possibilities."

  11. #86
    Richard Riehle Guest

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    [QUOTE=Joseph Svinth]Mark --

    "There is no dogma with judo. Therefore a method cannot be said to be wrong or right, but by testing it against the maxim 'maximum efficiency and minimum effort' it can be said that one is better than the other..." Koizumi

    This is a great quotation, Joseph. Too many sensei have their way of doing waza and believe their students should do exactly the same way. More mature sensei realize that they are helping their students make each waza their own, based on what feels right for that student. We are all different in body type, physical ability, and coordination. Hane goshi was invented by a senior judoka at the Kodokan who could not bend his leg to execute a proper harai goshi. Now hane goshi is part of the canon.

    I know, as my own body accelerates into antiquity, that certain techniques I could perform one way when I was younger need to be now adjusted to the changes in my ability as an arthritic senior citizen. Yet, in many ways, my Judo has improved. That may sound contradictory, and I cannot explain it. When you are in your 70's and still doing Judo, you will understand what I mean.

    When I am teaching, I suggest to students that they take a careful appraisal of their opponent and adjust their grip according to the opponent's physical size and shape. For example, if I want to execute morote seioe nage on a person a little shorter, I take a grip on the collar a bit lower than it that person is taller than me. I have a lifelong deformity in my left leg due to childhood polio. It is not a noticeable deformity and I managed to hide it well enough to serve in the military, but it is just enough to alter certain techniques that I might do differently if it were not there.

    Still, there are principles that hold. Little details such as how we hold our foot when doing any ashi waza can make a difference or how we bend our knees for a given set of koshi waza. Then, there are the larger, more fundamental principles mentioned by other contributors to this discussion. Kano, himself, made it clear that Judo was not about a collection of "tricks." Rather, it was a system of martial arts based on a set of principles. You may know the first two sets of the go kyo no waza really well, but if you cannot understand when to use them in the context of the principles, all you have is a bag of tricks that will be of little use when you encounter someone with greater skill or greater strength.

    Richard Riehle

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